First post, AK on the SB.

Hi, this is my first post.

I'm sorry I didn't find a converter for the Gaming Club. Maybe someone can help me with that. And as I'm french, my english is sometimes not so great.

I doubled up a few hands earlier, I'm JP, and oxo1 just arrived at the table. He was among the chip leaders. I think I reraised too much preflop, like if I was defending against a steal. When he called I thought he had a premium hand.

Obviously I didn't think enough on that one and played it too fast. When he called my bet on the flop, I'm way behind JJ, AJ, AA and way ahead KK (wich he would have reraised preflop with, I guess), QQ, TT, AQ. But the hand started like a steal so when I make two pairs and the flush comes on the turn I'm frozen and I don't want to loose my stack there.

What can you do there? And any advise on the post itself is welcome. I'm not sure of the interest of the hand. It is more about what are my options on the turn besides I'm not happy with the size of my reraise preflop.



** Game ID 572151628 starting - 2005-11-09 19:27:33
** $3 NL Freezeout:Table 26 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (800.00|1600.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money



- Tonfro sitting in seat 1 with $16770.00
- Jamesp362000 sitting in seat 2 with $5160.00
- wrubre sitting in seat 3 with $6590.00
- bendoproduct sitting in seat 4 with $3230.00
- BlackBoysHC sitting in seat 5 with $4940.00
- BBD19 sitting in seat 6 with $2560.00
- oxo1 sitting in seat 7 with $27460.00
- lunchbox55 sitting in seat 8 with $5860.00
- phatclio sitting in seat 9 with $6015.00 [Dealer]
- JP_74 sitting in seat 10 with $19640.00

JP_74 posted the small blind - $400.00
Tonfro posted the big blind - $800.00



** Dealing card to JP_74: Ace of Hearts, King of Diamonds
Jamesp362000 folded
wrubre folded
bendoproduct folded
BlackBoysHC folded
BBD19 folded
oxo1 raised - $1600.00
lunchbox55 folded
phatclio folded
JP_74 raised - $4400.00
Tonfro folded
oxo1 called - $4400.00



** Dealing the flop: Ace of Spades, Jack of Hearts, 8 of Spades

JP_74 bet - $5600.00

oxo1 called - $5600.00



** Dealing the turn: King of Spades

JP_74 checked

oxo1 checked



** Dealing the river: 10 of Spades

JP_74 checked

oxo1 checked

???

[EverettKings]

My only problem is not betting the turn.

Your reraise preflop was fine. Your flop bet was fine because it doesn't show too much strength, and he may continue with KJ or some other weak-ish made hand

The turn two pairs you but puts straight and flush stuff out there. The odds of him actually turning the flush or straight are pretty miniscule. You're almost always ahead here, and checking can give a weak spade or something a free river to beat you. You may also cost yourself chips against Ax or some other marginal made hand that would have paid off a turn bet.

So just push the turn. You only have 9 or 10k left so just jam it. He's not folding an ace at this point and certainly not two pair, but you don't have enough chips to get away if you're beat. What did he have, QJ?

Hope it worked out. Keep posting.

Everett

Push pf.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
Push pf if you want to make the minimum with a very strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Corrected.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Push pf if you want to make the minimum with a very strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

He wants to see all five cards. 2/3 of time he is missing the flop. Push it, then you get to see turn and river. Plus he has FE. It is the mathemtically correct thing to do.

I feel generous today: Why you should push AK (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=14805&m_id=65565&PHPSESSID=801760a5af9da48ec 7f7dfbfbbb50ece)

[Sam T.]

From the article you cite:

"Let’s say the under-the-gun (UTG) player has raised to three times the big blind at a ninehanded no-limit hold’em table. Three players fold and you look down at A-K offsuit. You have 15 big blinds in front of you."

From the original post (more or less)

Let’s say the CO+1 has raised to two times the big blind at a ninehanded no-limit hold’em table. Three players fold and you look down at A-K offsuit. You have 23 big blinds in front of you.

Not the same thing. Also the Matros article is called "Fold Equity". The villain made a weak raise from LP. I don't want him to fold, I want his chips.

Thanks for the answers, when you say pf is that pre or post flop. I am confortable pushing with AK preflop, but there the pot was small. what can he call with certainly not anything else than a pair or AK.

So as we had much more chips than the others, it didn't feel right to take that chance with him, but that maybe wrong.

About the flush or the str8, you are right, If he payed so much to make it, I believe I should pay him off because it is so unlikely and if I loose the hd with tow pairs that's unlucky, but that's it.

What happened is that he had a pair of tens and won the pot with trip tens on the river.

How would you play it if you were him, does it make sens to call the flop bet with that. I felt like he did a mistake there and that i gave him the pot because of that. I think it is not a bad beat anyway because I failed defending my hand.

But maybe he felt like I was just defending against a steal and just bluffing.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
My only problem is not betting the turn.

Your reraise preflop was fine. Your flop bet was fine because it doesn't show too much strength, and he may continue with KJ or some other weak-ish made hand

The turn two pairs you but puts straight and flush stuff out there. The odds of him actually turning the flush or straight are pretty miniscule. You're almost always ahead here, and checking can give a weak spade or something a free river to beat you. You may also cost yourself chips against Ax or some other marginal made hand that would have paid off a turn bet.

So just push the turn. You only have 9 or 10k left so just jam it. He's not folding an ace at this point and certainly not two pair, but you don't have enough chips to get away if you're beat. What did he have, QJ?

Hope it worked out. Keep posting.

Everett

[/ QUOTE ]

agree with all of it. the pot's too big on the turn for you to even consider folding, and you'd hate to let a 1-card flush beat you (or not pay you off if it misses).

[schwza]

this is something of a hijack, but i think villain should have pushed the river if he has no spades. how could hero have a spade?

[ QUOTE ]
From the article you cite:

"Let’s say the under-the-gun (UTG) player has raised to three times the big blind at a ninehanded no-limit hold’em table. Three players fold and you look down at A-K offsuit. You have 15 big blinds in front of you."

From the original post (more or less)

Let’s say the CO+1 has raised to two times the big blind at a ninehanded no-limit hold’em table. Three players fold and you look down at A-K offsuit. You have 23 big blinds in front of you.

Not the same thing. Also the Matros article is called "Fold Equity". The villain made a weak raise from LP. I don't want him to fold, I want his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting more chips if you push. Take the same scenario and run it 1,000 times. Pushing makes you more money.

[Sam T.]

PF is pre-flop.

I would probably have bet the turn, but I'm not sure it would have made a huge difference. It looks like the villain decided very early in the hand that you were bluffing, and he wasn't going to change his mind. (If he's going to call with two overs on the board, he's going to call with three overs on the board. It's a very useful technique if you want to lose money: Put your opponent on a hand you beat.)

So it may have cost you the pot, but maybe not. Unless you're a prodigy, you'll make worse mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]
this is something of a hijack, but i think villain should have pushed the river if he has no spades. how could hero have a spade?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's why i felt so stupid after that. we should both now that none of us has spades, and if he moves all in on the turn can I fold. As he has me covered he has to make that move I think. But he can't if I do it first.

And thanks for the article about pushing AK. I always raise with that hand anyway. I remenber a thread about that recently and I could not desagree more with the people flat calling with AK and saying they could outplay there opponent on the flop.

Most of the time a weak ace or king stays if he makes two pairs or have you reverse dominated once he hits his kicker and that's the worst that can happen. Even worst against pairs or AQ-AT if no one hits. Once you do your prob bet, or you bet for value, you risk more money than you can make. Specialy if you play it as bad as I just did.

[ QUOTE ]
From the article you cite:


Let’s say the CO+1 has raised to two times the big blind at a ninehanded no-limit hold’em table. Three players fold and you look down at A-K offsuit. You have 23 big blinds in front of you.

Not the same thing. Also the Matros article is called "Fold Equity". The villain made a weak raise from LP. I don't want him to fold, I want his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why I put such a raise, i don't want to see a weak
A to get lucky there, I want to be pretty sure I can have an idea he has something serious.

I have to confess that I acted a bit to quickly, I should have take more time to be ready for the rest of the hand and prepare my future options, that is the meaning of this post. I thought he would fold as there was no point to mess it up if he was on a steal.

I think I don't make much pushing unless make a stand or loosing all my chips. As he just arrived at the table I couldn't tell if he was agressive or not.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
That is why I put such a raise, i don't want to see a weak
A to get lucky there

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you know this, but you would LOVE to get all-in before the flop against a weaker ace.

it's also great if you can play post-flop against a weaker ace. bottom line, if he has an A, you really don't want him to fold pre-flop.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is why I put such a raise, i don't want to see a weak
A to get lucky there

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you know this, but you would LOVE to get all-in before the flop against a weaker ace.

it's also great if you can play post-flop against a weaker ace. bottom line, if he has an A, you really don't want him to fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I obviously want to go all in against a weaker Ace, but there even if he has AQs I don't think he would call the all in. Why does he want to risk so much chips after putting only two big blinds on the pot? Do you really think he can do that?

Of course this would not be true if he had half or third of my stack, there he could believe that is weak Ace was best and had to make something happen anyway.

So I made it expensive and now there is AJ on the flop. I bet he calls, if he has AJ he raises me all in. I hit my kicker on the turn and then like you guys all said I should push.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]

I obviously want to go all in against a weaker Ace, but there even if he has AQs I don't think he would call the all in. Why does he want to risk so much chips after putting only two big blinds on the pot? Do you really think he can do that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you would (and will) be surprised. People get very stupid when they are fighting over the blinds. The stealer will often convince himself you're on a re-steal and push over the top with 74s. Nothing makes me laugh harder than a BB and SB raising and re-raising until they are both all-in pre-flop with Q7 vs K4.

[ QUOTE ]
PF is pre-flop.

I would probably have bet the turn, but I'm not sure it would have made a huge difference. It looks like the villain decided very early in the hand that you were bluffing, and he wasn't going to change his mind. (If he's going to call with two overs on the board, he's going to call with three overs on the board. It's a very useful technique if you want to lose money: Put your opponent on a hand you beat.)

So it may have cost you the pot, but maybe not. Unless you're a prodigy, you'll make worse mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, here people stick to their first guess way too often. when you attack a blind, sometimes they stay with low pair on the flop because they are worried you could be bluffing and can loose almost all there stack there. Once in a while they are lucky, make trips by the river or catch a bluff. That maybe so memorable to them that they are ready to do it again.

And I felt we was in love with his hand anyway, so that was the right spot to make him pay. We both made it very far after that. There is so many short stacks waiting for a huge hand to make a move, that with some agressiveness and luck you can recover pretty fast from that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I obviously want to go all in against a weaker Ace, but there even if he has AQs I don't think he would call the all in. Why does he want to risk so much chips after putting only two big blinds on the pot? Do you really think he can do that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you would (and will) be surprised. People get very stupid when they are fighting over the blinds. The stealer will often convince himself you're on a re-steal and push over the top with 74s. Nothing makes me laugh harder than a BB and SB raising and re-raising until they are both all-in pre-flop with Q7 vs K4.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, just answered to that one.

I also felt at that point that i had my share of luck when I needed to and came back from a bad beat with very little left.

Now I had a stack to play with. I would have call a push, obviously but why to gamble there when the other players play so weak tight and give you a great opportunity to actually play poker or at least try. And that is the fun part right?

I feel like to double here is less interesting when you feel pretty confortable at the table. Is that negative expectation?

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing makes me laugh harder than a BB and SB raising and re-raising until they are both all-in pre-flop with Q7 vs K4.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like any number of my bustout hands.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I also felt at that point that i had my share of luck when I needed to and came back from a bad beat with very little left.

Now I had a stack to play with. I would have call a push, obviously but why to gamble there when the other players play so weak tight and give you a great opportunity to actually play poker or at least try. And that is the fun part right?

I feel like to double here is less interesting when you feel pretty confortable at the table. Is that negative expectation?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you talking about why you didn't push pre-flop? i think that aggressive pre-flop poker is very much "playing poker" and is extremely fun. i think it's also where a lot (most?) of my edge comes from.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also felt at that point that i had my share of luck when I needed to and came back from a bad beat with very little left.

Now I had a stack to play with. I would have call a push, obviously but why to gamble there when the other players play so weak tight and give you a great opportunity to actually play poker or at least try. And that is the fun part right?

I feel like to double here is less interesting when you feel pretty confortable at the table. Is that negative expectation?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you talking about why you didn't push pre-flop? i think that aggressive pre-flop poker is very much "playing poker" and is extremely fun. i think it's also where a lot (most?) of my edge comes from.

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer this one, this is how i left the tournament: 15 players left, but we all make the same very little money unless you are on the top 10 anyway. I wanted to attack the blinds obviously I wanted a call from the big blind. But two big stacks were on my way and when he used all the time to call I could guess I was dominated.

Once again I feel I acted too quickly on this one, my stack was deeper than i tought when I acted. What do you recommand there? A big raise (6-8000?) and then call the all in from the big blind and let it go if it is the big stack who comes over the top with still an other big stack behind him plus the BB.

** Game ID 572202225 starting - 2005-11-09 20:21:30

** $3 NL Freezeout:Table 33 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (2000.00|4000.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money



- BlackBoysHC sitting in seat 1 with $56520.00
- JP_74 sitting in seat 3 with $37595.50
- MrLawless sitting in seat 5 with $67012.50 [Dealer]
- smackey sitting in seat 6 with $56891.00
- Pok3rmon sitting in seat 7 with $23760.00
- kockar9 sitting in seat 8 with $62255.00
- kcattire sitting in seat 9 with $6880.00



smackey posted the small blind - $1000.00

Pok3rmon posted the big blind - $2000.00



** Dealing card to JP_74: Ace of Hearts, Queen of Hearts

kockar9 folded

kcattire folded

BlackBoysHC folded

JP_74 went all-in - $37595.50

MrLawless folded

smackey called - $37595.50

Pok3rmon folded

smackey shows: Ace of Diamonds, King of Clubs



** Dealing the flop: 10 of Spades, 3 of Clubs, Jack of Spades



** Dealing the turn: 9 of Clubs



** Dealing the river: Ace of Clubs

smackey wins $77191.00 from the main pot



End of game 572202225