Blarg...

[pokerdirty]

No reads, first hand. PR 1/2

Seat 1: UTG ($84.80 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG+1 ($102.60 in chips)
Seat 4: MP1 ($47.90 in chips)
Seat 5: MP2 ($43.50 in chips)
Seat 6: MP3 ($115.35 in chips)
Seat 7: CO ($54 in chips)
Seat 8: Button ($57.10 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero, SB [10/images/graemlins/club.gif, 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif]($50.00 in chips)
Seat 10: BB ($32 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Hero posts blind ($0.50), BB posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls $1, Hero bets $1.50, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, Button calls $1.

FLOP [board cards J/images/graemlins/club.gif,9/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Hero...?

First off, is raising the correct play here with so many people in the hand? Certainly no one will fold, except maybe the BB.

Second off, what's the best way to play the flop?

Thanks,

Shaf

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, is raising the correct play here with so many people in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you're raising for value.

[ QUOTE ]
Second off, what's the best way to play the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think your choices are?

[pokerdirty]

there's 6 people in the hand, someone's gonna have a jack alotta percent of the time. this is why i'm asking for help on this particular hand.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
there's 6 people in the hand, someone's gonna have a jack alotta percent of the time. this is why i'm asking for help on this particular hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percent of the time do you think somebody's going to have a jack?

[TripleH68]

The board is draw heavy.
If you lead the flop a raise could mean anything from a set to two pair to tpgk to str8 draw to flush draw to a lag with middle pair/bd draw.

It is a little interesting that the first three limps were in early position, but we have no reads and that will not help here.

Check and see what develops.

[J.Copperthite]

The value you obtain by raising preflop is neglected by the fact that you are not the overall favorite against 5 other players you know will call (maybe the big blind will fold, but no guarantee). I think just limping is a good idea because if you hit your set nobody will see it coming and you will be able to build up a nice pot. If you raise preflop everyone will tighten up unless they smack up the flop. After the jack-high flop, you should check and see what happens. What I may do is checkraise a late-position bettor and face the rest of the field with calling two cold. You may get someone to lay down a J-T or similar TPGK hand (kudos if you do!), but it will also tell you exactly where you are on an inexpensive betting round. Obviously if an early position bettor bets and its raised, you have an easy fold. You may also fold if there's a few callers, because then its highly likely someone has a jack. You allow yourself to fold here also after committing only one small bet to the pot.

Hope this helps. Good luck in the future!

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
The value you obtain by raising preflop is neglected by the fact that you are not the overall favorite against 5 other players you know will call (maybe the big blind will fold, but no guarantee).

[/ QUOTE ]

When you're raising here you don't want them to fold. They have limped in with rubbish and you're making them pay. Not raising here is terrible.

[ QUOTE ]
I think just limping is a good idea because if you hit your set nobody will see it coming and you will be able to build up a nice pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can build up a even better pot by raising preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise preflop everyone will tighten up unless they smack up the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who? And what makes you think you're going to be able to build a big pot if you flop your set? Who says they're going to call then? You seem to think that nobody will call much on the flop if you raise preflop and everyone will call if you limp.


[ QUOTE ]
After the jack-high flop, you should check and see what happens. What I may do is checkraise a late-position bettor and face the rest of the field with calling two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This you said right.


[ QUOTE ]
You may get someone to lay down a J-T or similar TPGK hand (kudos if you do!),

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys will never lay down such a hand.


[ QUOTE ]
but it will also tell you exactly where you are on an inexpensive betting round.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will it? You raise and they all cold call. Where are you?


[ QUOTE ]
Obviously if an early position bettor bets and its raised, you have an easy fold. You may also fold if there's a few callers, because then its highly likely someone has a jack. You allow yourself to fold here also after committing only one small bet to the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is weak-tight thinking. You seem to only want to get involved if you hit your hand, and even then at a very small price. This will guarentee that while you may be a small winner at the game, in the long run you will never be a big winner. It will also make it very easy to play against you.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
The value you obtain by raising preflop is neglected by the fact that you are not the overall favorite against 5 other players you know will call (maybe the big blind will fold, but no guarantee). I think just limping is a good idea because if you hit your set nobody will see it coming and you will be able to build up a nice pot. If you raise preflop everyone will tighten up unless they smack up the flop. After the jack-high flop, you should check and see what happens. What I may do is checkraise a late-position bettor and face the rest of the field with calling two cold. You may get someone to lay down a J-T or similar TPGK hand (kudos if you do!), but it will also tell you exactly where you are on an inexpensive betting round. Obviously if an early position bettor bets and its raised, you have an easy fold. You may also fold if there's a few callers, because then its highly likely someone has a jack. You allow yourself to fold here also after committing only one small bet to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible. Just terrible.

How do you figure that, "...you are not the overall favorite against 5 other players you know will call..."? Since nobody has raised, you've got the best hand preflop. And it's got showdown potential, you don't need to improve to win with it. Why would you not try to get more money into the pot under these circumstances?

Then, having not raised preflop you're suggesting attempting a c/r on the flop? What if nobody has a jack and it checks through? You've just let everybody see the river for 1SB! At what point do you start betting? When a queen falls on the turn? Or do you just keep checking, hoping nobody bets so your unimproved tens can take a 6SB pot from everybody else's unimproved jack-[censored]?

[ QUOTE ]
You allow yourself to fold here also after committing only one small bet to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

With pocket tens...OMG, I think my ulcer just crawled up my spine and attacked my brain. I'd better go drink some more coffee to try and bait it back down to where it should be.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After the jack-high flop, you should check and see what happens. What I may do is checkraise a late-position bettor and face the rest of the field with calling two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This you said right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only thing I dispute, Ads. I bet this flop, and re-evaluate if raised, especially since I was the preflop aggressor. I don't think anybody's going to bet UI overcards for us, here, or even a strong draw.

If I bet, everybody calls and another overcard falls on the turn I'll check to see what happens. Until then, though, you're OOP with a strong hand, and if you let yourself lose control of the hand you're going to wind up folding without knowing why.

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's 6 people in the hand, someone's gonna have a jack alotta percent of the time. this is why i'm asking for help on this particular hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percent of the time do you think somebody's going to have a jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
alotta percent of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's 6 people in the hand, someone's gonna have a jack alotta percent of the time. this is why i'm asking for help on this particular hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percent of the time do you think somebody's going to have a jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
alotta percent of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you have pocket tens, so if a jack comes on the flop somebody must be holding one?

Look at it this way. What's the other card that Mr. Jack-holder is holding that prompted him to limp in early postion but not raise? How many of THOSE possible holdings is he now going to love enough when the preflop raiser bets out? So, what's the percentage of the time that he's holding one of THOSE hands?

Meh. This whole thread sucks. It started out with a fairly boring hand history (how many "I have a PP and an overcard fell" posts do we see every week) and somebody asking to be told how to play his cards without putting any apparent thought into it himself (and, yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP lost to J6s or some other crap). It took a detour through Weak-Tight World (The Happiest Place On Earth Unless You Don't Want It To Be And Then We'll Gladly Fold It Up!), and now the OP is quoting himself back to me in response to my attempts at Socratic teaching.

Maybe I'm just tired...

[bjarne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off, is raising the correct play here with so many people in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you're raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]



I don't agree that raising with TT in this spot is a good thing. We are certainly ahead preflop and if we were to have a showdown before the flop comes, I'd raise (In that case I'd raise with any pocket pair). But we have a few streets to go before showdown. To raise for value we should have an equity advantage. With TT I doubt we win a showdown UI often enough to make this raise worth while (would you raise with 99, 88, 77,..?). Personally I'd even limp JJ here and play for the set.


I think there is a discussion somewhere in HEFAP (could be SSHE also) about playing JJ and how that hand prefers either a single (or two opponents) in which case we have good chances winning UI, or many opponents. In the latter case we play for the set potential.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off, is raising the correct play here with so many people in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you're raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]



I don't agree that raising with TT in this spot is a good thing. We are certainly ahead preflop and if we were to have a showdown before the flop comes, I'd raise (In that case I'd raise with any pocket pair). But we have a few streets to go before showdown. To raise for value we should have an equity advantage. With TT I doubt we win a showdown UI often enough to make this raise worth while (would you raise with 99, 88, 77,..?). Personally I'd even limp JJ here and play for the set.


I think there is a discussion somewhere in HEFAP (could be SSHE also) about playing JJ and how that hand prefers either a single (or two opponents) in which case we have good chances winning UI, or many opponents. In the latter case we play for the set potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT has a huge eqtuity advantage over 5 random hands.

Limping TT and JJ in this spot is really bad.

In HPFAP the authors were not talking about a game where 4 or 5 people will limp in with random hands and play terribly after the flop.

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]

Because you have pocket tens, so if a jack comes on the flop somebody must be holding one?

Look at it this way. What's the other card that Mr. Jack-holder is holding that prompted him to limp in early postion but not raise? How many of THOSE possible holdings is he now going to love enough when the preflop raiser bets out? So, what's the percentage of the time that he's holding one of THOSE hands?

Meh. This whole thread sucks. It started out with a fairly boring hand history (how many "I have a PP and an overcard fell" posts do we see every week) and somebody asking to be told how to play his cards without putting any apparent thought into it himself (and, yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP lost to J6s or some other crap). It took a detour through Weak-Tight World (The Happiest Place On Earth Unless You Don't Want It To Be And Then We'll Gladly Fold It Up!), and now the OP is quoting himself back to me in response to my attempts at Socratic teaching.

Maybe I'm just tired...

[/ QUOTE ]

no [censored], it's because i'm trying to learn limit. sure, there i may be ahead here, but with 5 other limpers/callers in the hand, i'm assuming one of them is going to have a jack. is this a horrible assumption?

[Koss]

Seriously, what is the math that someone has a jack here? From a strictly mathematical point can anyone answer this?

I think with your backdoor straight draw you atleast want to see the turn. I'd check this, looking to check/raise a late position bettor, or call an EP bet to see if I improve. Getting it checked through is not a total disaster. If a blank falls on the turn (The 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif sure would look nice) you can lead out and charge 1BB to take it to the river. A Q or an 8 gives you an OESD. With this big pot, a lot of hands are going to stick around for one small bet on the flop. A lead bet will only get folds from the weakest of hands here, and leave you with no idea of where you are in the hand. Go for the check/raise and re-evaluate on the turn.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
no [censored], it's because i'm trying to learn limit. sure, there i may be ahead here, but with 5 other limpers/callers in the hand, i'm assuming one of them is going to have a jack. is this a horrible assumption?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's horrible to assume this after all your opponents have done is call your pre-flop raise. They could have anything.

This is actually a pretty good flop for TT. Don't shut down completely just because the Jack appeared.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, what is the math that someone has a jack here? From a strictly mathematical point can anyone answer this?

[/ QUOTE ]
tell me exact hand ranges for everyone involved, and yes. otherwise, no.

[deception5]

Looks good so far, this is a must raise preflop.

Your best bet here is to check and see what the action is. You can fold safely if it's a bet an a raise back to you. Try to c/r a late position bet if possible as it's more likely to be someone taking a stab and will give you a good idea of what the players in the middle have since they have to call 2.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the only thing I dispute, Ads. I bet this flop, and re-evaluate if raised, especially since I was the preflop aggressor. I don't think anybody's going to bet UI overcards for us, here, or even a strong draw.

If I bet, everybody calls and another overcard falls on the turn I'll check to see what happens. Until then, though, you're OOP with a strong hand, and if you let yourself lose control of the hand you're going to wind up folding without knowing why.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you are saying bozlax except betting this flop. I think a check and see is the best play here.

This flop probably hit someone, but this does not mean someone has a J (to the person saying a J has to be out there). If a late position bets he could easily have a draw, I would check raise a lp bet and face the field with 2.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the only thing I dispute, Ads. I bet this flop, and re-evaluate if raised, especially since I was the preflop aggressor. I don't think anybody's going to bet UI overcards for us, here, or even a strong draw.

If I bet, everybody calls and another overcard falls on the turn I'll check to see what happens. Until then, though, you're OOP with a strong hand, and if you let yourself lose control of the hand you're going to wind up folding without knowing why.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you are saying bozlax except betting this flop. I think a check and see is the best play here.

This flop probably hit someone, but this does not mean someone has a J (to the person saying a J has to be out there). If a late position bets he could easily have a draw, I would check raise a lp bet and face the field with 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest I think you could find good arguments either way for a check and see and a bet right out. I think that it largely depends on your table image and your reads of the players still to act.

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]
No reads, first hand. PR 1/2

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for everyone who tried to help w/o flaming me, especially in some of the later responses. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Shaf

[kiemo]

I used to subscribe to the theory that pocket tens was never to be raised from the blinds at this level with many callers, because the limpers probably have overcards which they arent folding if they pair up.

But then I looked at chance to win. Against 5 players how often is TT going to win? Is it greater then 16% (really more like 18% due to rake)? If so then you make money by getting as many bets in preflop as possible.


As for the flop. I prefer betting this out as I want to give people a chance to fold now. I dont like check raising here becuase if someone bets this they probably have a Jack and now you are check raising with a hand thats WB, even if it does clean up some other players. And your out of position so you have to follow up with a turn bet and hope he folds (which he wont probably) or your hoping it gets checked through.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. This whole thread sucks. It started out with a fairly boring hand history (how many "I have a PP and an overcard fell" posts do we see every week) and somebody asking to be told how to play his cards without putting any apparent thought into it himself (and, yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP lost to J6s or some other crap). It took a detour through Weak-Tight World (The Happiest Place On Earth Unless You Don't Want It To Be And Then We'll Gladly Fold It Up!), and now the OP is quoting himself back to me in response to my attempts at Socratic teaching.

Maybe I'm just tired...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the best rants I have read in some time.

If it means anything to you it actually brightened my day.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meh. This whole thread sucks. It started out with a fairly boring hand history (how many "I have a PP and an overcard fell" posts do we see every week) and somebody asking to be told how to play his cards without putting any apparent thought into it himself (and, yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP lost to J6s or some other crap). It took a detour through Weak-Tight World (The Happiest Place On Earth Unless You Don't Want It To Be And Then We'll Gladly Fold It Up!), and now the OP is quoting himself back to me in response to my attempts at Socratic teaching.

Maybe I'm just tired...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the best rants I have read in some time.

If it means anything to you it actually brightened my day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I laughed out loud for only the second time on these boards.

[Koss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, what is the math that someone has a jack here? From a strictly mathematical point can anyone answer this?

[/ QUOTE ]
tell me exact hand ranges for everyone involved, and yes. otherwise, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking any 2, kind of a worst case scenario.

[Homer315]

I think you have to raise PF because of what an earlier poster said. You are going to win more than 16% of the time here with the pocket tens. You're making money if everyone calls this bet PF.

As for the flop, I like checking this line, and here's why. If an early position player bets, it entirely possible that you get a bunch of calls, making it as high as 16 or 17 SB in the pot when it comes back to you. Given your back door straight AND flush draws, not to mention the other two tens, I think you are getting the right odds to peel one off. (call it 3.5 outs or so, because I'm discounting further the flush draw, since you only have the ten, and you're getting between 15 and 17 to 1).

If a very late position player bets, he may be betting overcards, and a check raise may be in order to drive some folks with overcards out, as well as possibly a weak jack. I don't see much benefit in betting out the flop, because damn near every draw has the right odds to call.

When the turn card comes, you're going to have a much clearer idea of where your hand stands. A heart, 8, or Q gives you a pretty decent draw. Any other overcards are going to significantly weaken your hand, unless your check raise (if you executed one) drastically reduced the number of opponents. An undercard increases your equity pretty strongly I think.

My primary reason for not betting the flop is that few people will fold, and, moreover, someone in late position with a flush draw or straight draw may raise for value making it two back to you. You don't really want to pay 2SB to see the turn here.

[Gunther S.]

Before the flop, this pot is HUGE! You made it that way, and were right to do so for a couple of reasons that were already discussed.

On the flop, this pot is HUGE! and the board is scary. Two things are true at this point: (1) there is no way to protect your hand here, and (2) you cannot fold. Did I mention that the pot is huge?

Check.

If it is bet, raised, 3-bet, capped behind you then you won't have odds to cold call. Leave it to the draws and the odd jacks.

If it is bet on your left and called around, call like a fish and bet out the turn. With luck, the original better will raise.

If it's bet in late position ... that's tough because the MP flush draw is going to trap raise this hand. I still think you should call, but that may be fishy. Check raise the turn.

This flop sucks. You have a sketchy hand with outs, most of which are probably redraws for your 5 opponents. But that pot is big. You have to figure out the way that maximizes your chance of winning it. Giving up is losers poker.

Flame on.

[Homer315]

The chances of the other 5 hands NOT having a jack is 47.9%, i.e. 52% of the time, one of those five hands will have a Jack.....

Just random hands that is...

[Koss]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is bet on your left and called around, call like a fish and bet out the turn. With luck, the original better will raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would raise our turn donk that don't have us thouroughly destroyed?

[Gunther S.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it is bet on your left and called around, call like a fish and bet out the turn. With luck, the original better will raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would raise our turn donk that don't have us thouroughly destroyed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ambiguously derogatory. Good question, and I'm fishing here in more ways than one... Then it seems that this line requires a "good" turn card. There aren't any really good cards, but one of the two tens is decent. Also, any of the 8s is great, any of the 7s is good, a non-diamond queen is my least favorite.

Again, our chances of winning this hand are slim. What difference does it make that we are crushed or not? The pot is still large, and that is the most important aspect of this hand. Winning it a small number of times can still be profitable. This is a position that comes up again and again. If we play assuming we are crushed our game is screwed. If the pot was 6 SBs, I'd lean more towards folding. Here, unless the action gets ugly no way!

[J.Copperthite]

Seeing as I am the original "raise or not" poster who received lots of comments on how horrible it is to not raise preflop in the SB with TT, let me explain. First off, I am aware that raising has +EV preflop. I'm assuming that at $1/$2, the players are probably limping with big offsuit cards (A-T, Q-J, etc.), not truly random hands. It is more likely that the flop will contain an overcard than not, and you are out of position and first to act on the flop. I like to make my money postflop personally - if that makes me weak-tight then so be it. My poker tracker gives me a PFR% of 5.4% (quite low I agree), but a TAF of 1.9, 2.3, and 2.8 on the flop, turn, and river respectively. Anyway, according to Pokerstove, TT will win about 30% of the time against 5 random hands. The EV here is:
EV = .3(5) + .7(-1) = 1.5 + -.7 = 0.8
BUT this is against 5 random hands - this is assuming that your opponents are limping with anything. Face it, this is not true. Its more likely that at least two of your opponents are a coinflip against you (Q-J, K-J, etc.). Your EV is a lot closer to 0, but still positive when raising preflop. Micro-stakes Limit Hold 'em is a showdown game, and I do not see TT winning that often unimproved against 5 players taking a flop. There is definitely a good argument for just completing the small blind rather than raising. I'll give up a bit of preflop EV if it allows me to exploit my opponents on the flop in a +EV situation.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
TT will win about 30% of the time against 5 random hands

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not see TT winning that often unimproved against 5 players taking a flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if KJ and QJ are out there this is still a raise. And don't forget about the guy limping A4, 76, JT, etc., who's padding the pot and practically giving you money.

Hell, with so many players already in I could argue that you could raise ANY pair here for value.

Also, I think you're giving these guys too much credit.

What might they be limping with?

any Ace
any two broadway
any pair
any two suited

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, with so many players already in I could argue that you could raise ANY pair here for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why there should be no debate about preflop play in this hand.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming that at $1/$2, the players are probably limping with big offsuit cards (A-T, Q-J, etc.), not truly random hands

[/ QUOTE ]

you'd be suprised.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
If it means anything to you it actually brightened my day.

[/ QUOTE ]

More than you'll ever know. It was fun to write, too.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming that at $1/$2, the players are probably limping with big offsuit cards (A-T, Q-J, etc.), not truly random hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
You would be assuming very, very wrong.