Classic Clarkmeister Theory?

Villain TAG - 120 hands

First hand I've hand where I'm OOP HU with a 4 flush on the river. I have TPTK but there is also the straight/flush out.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Now if you're Villain and know Hero is a TAG and may pull a Clarkmeister, would you play back pulling a Double-Clarkmeister? Thoughts?

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[Spartan1983]

I think I only play back if I have a decent flush card or if I had TPTK.

[sean c]

Hi Fair i would have bet the flop and i certainly would have bet the turn after he checked the flop. You said the villian is tag not tricky or laggy so the river is an easy bet/fold.

[adsman]

I think you need to bet the turn.

[Koss]

I think I actually like the turn check. His play is pretty consistent with a whiffed AK, and even not many TAGs can resist betting an unimproved AK heads up when checked to, twice. I think he folds the turn a lot if you bet it.

[gopnik]

why are you so passive on the flop and turn? At least c/r the turn or something...

[Koss]

Not sure about check/raising the turn. I think it's safe to assume AK/AQ or a smaller PP here? The few times we are behind on the turn check/raising gets us into some serious trouble. I think a check induces a bluff from weaker hands and raising will just get them to fold. The only time I see it having any real value is if has a big diamond. Any thoughts?

[TomBrooks]

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why are you so passive on the flop and turn?

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[Walker]

What is a clarkmeister exactly?

This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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I disagree with this. We are WA/WB if villians 3 betting range is AA-JJ/AK.

EDIT: Just saying that checking the flop is not terrible, betting is an option

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I think I actually like the turn check. His play is pretty consistent with a whiffed AK, and even not many TAGs can resist betting an unimproved AK heads up when checked to, twice. I think he folds the turn a lot if you bet it.

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IMO villian checks behind the flop with AK or with a slowplaying a set or big overpair. I think we should bet the turn to avoid give a big /images/graemlins/diamond.gif a free card, though I guess that depends on whether we can fold to a raise (not sure if villian would semibluff with AK with big /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)

[DMBFan23]

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This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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We are WA/WB if villians 3 betting range is AA-JJ/AK.


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AK has 7 outs, more if he has a diamond or 2. not WB at all.

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This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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We are WA/WB if villians 3 betting range is AA-JJ/AK.


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AK has 7 outs, more if he has a diamond or 2. not WB at all.

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Yes you are right it is not classical WA/WB (I had misread the board and didn't see the gutshot.)

But is it wrong to play it the same way? Who cares about giving a free card here when we are likely behind. I guess I say this b/c what do we do if we get raised on the flop or the turn (villian could easily semibluff raise AK, especially if he has a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)

[KaiShin]

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What is a clarkmeister exactly?

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Heads up, out of position, when the fourth flush card falls on the river, you should bet.

Conversely, HU, with position, and facing a bet on the river if the fourth flush card falls, you should call.

[adsman]

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This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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We are WA/WB if villians 3 betting range is AA-JJ/AK.


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AK has 7 outs, more if he has a diamond or 2. not WB at all.

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Yes you are right it is not classical WA/WB (I had misread the board and didn't see the gutshot.)

But is it wrong to play it the same way? Who cares about giving a free card here when we are likely behind. I guess I say this b/c what do we do if we get raised on the flop or the turn (villian could easily semibluff raise AK, especially if he has a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)

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I think on the turn he has either AK or AQ. So bet it or check-raise it if you don't mind risking giving him a free card. Obviously we would love for an Ace to fall on the river, but there are only two of them left. He could have a gutshot draw in there or a flush draw or a straight draw come to think of it, so you have to pop him somewhere on the turn.

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This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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We are WA/WB if villians 3 betting range is AA-JJ/AK.


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AK has 7 outs, more if he has a diamond or 2. not WB at all.

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Who cares about giving a free card here when we are likely behind.

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Why are you insistent on thinking we're behind? It's very close but still you need to bet this to see where you are. I think once you lead out, villain raises with anything that beats us (because of the double-diamond and semi-coordinated board). If he holds AK he merely calls, IMO. Unless of course he has AdKd, in which case he has 15 outs and is a favorite heads up, and may raise anyway.

Lead out. If raised, I think it's safe to call. Unless he holds AA, you can count A's as outs. And of course, another J helps greatly.

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This flop check is horrible. I don't care if villain is TAG.

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We are WA/WB if villians 3 betting range is AA-JJ/AK.


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AK has 7 outs, more if he has a diamond or 2. not WB at all.

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Who cares about giving a free card here when we are likely behind.

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Why are you insistent on thinking we're behind? It's very close but still you need to bet this to see where you are. I think once you lead out, villain raises with anything that beats us (because of the double-diamond and semi-coordinated board). If he holds AK he merely calls, IMO. Unless of course he has AdKd, in which case he has 15 outs and is a favorite heads up, and may raise anyway.

Lead out. If raised, I think it's safe to call. Unless he holds AA, you can count A's as outs. And of course, another J helps greatly.

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So you want to bet/call the flop, then check/fold the turn UI?

[adsman]

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Why are you insistent on thinking we're behind? It's very close but still you need to bet this to see where you are.

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Leading out to 'see where you are', against a player who 3 bet you preflop when you're out of position is a very bad idea.

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Hi Fair i would have bet the flop and i certainly would have bet the turn after he checked the flop. You said the villian is tag not tricky or laggy so the river is an easy bet/fold.

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With Villain's 3-bet preflop and his TAG tendencies, my read was he would bet the flop when checked to allowing me to C/R him and then for me to lead the turn no matter what fell.

His check behind me on the flop was a total surprise. When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the turn I immediately began thinking of Clarkmeisters Theory. It's hard to believe, but in 40,000 hands I haven't yet been OOP HU with a 4 flush by the river. Either I've folded, won the pot outright or there were 3+ players involved.

When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell I was checking (right or wrongly) hoping he'd bet, I'd call and the Clarkmeister would fall into place. Which it did.

I'm not too concerned with betting the flop since my original plan was to C/R. Later my goal was to see if I could get HU OOP when the 4th flush fell, then bet into him.

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[sean c]

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Hi Fair i would have bet the flop and i certainly would have bet the turn after he checked the flop. You said the villian is tag not tricky or laggy so the river is an easy bet/fold.

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With Villain's 3-bet preflop and his TAG tendencies, my read was he would bet the flop when checked to allowing me to C/R him and then for me to lead the turn no matter what fell.

His check behind me on the flop was a total surprise. When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the turn I immediately began thinking of Clarkmeisters Theory. It's hard to believe, but in 40,000 hands I haven't yet been OOP HU with a 4 flush by the river. Either I've folded, won the pot outright or there were 3+ players involved.

When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell I was checking (right or wrongly) hoping he'd bet, I'd call and the Clarkmeister would fall into place. Which it did.

I'm not too concerned with betting the flop since my original plan was to C/R. Later my goal was to see if I could get HU OOP when the 4th flush fell, then bet into him.

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Hi Fair nothing wrong with going for a flop check/raise here but the turn check is just asking to get beat.

[Aaron W.]

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When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell I was checking (right or wrongly) hoping he'd bet, I'd call and the Clarkmeister would fall into place. Which it did.

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It only falls into play 20% of the time. Making this part of the plan it simply bad planning.

[sean c]

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When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell I was checking (right or wrongly) hoping he'd bet, I'd call and the Clarkmeister would fall into place. Which it did.

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It only falls into play 20% of the time. Making this part of the plan it simply bad planning.

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Yeah what you should have been hoping is that your turn bet would win you the pot.

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Hi Fair i would have bet the flop and i certainly would have bet the turn after he checked the flop. You said the villian is tag not tricky or laggy so the river is an easy bet/fold.

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With Villain's 3-bet preflop and his TAG tendencies, my read was he would bet the flop when checked to allowing me to C/R him and then for me to lead the turn no matter what fell.

His check behind me on the flop was a total surprise. When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the turn I immediately began thinking of Clarkmeisters Theory. It's hard to believe, but in 40,000 hands I haven't yet been OOP HU with a 4 flush by the river. Either I've folded, won the pot outright or there were 3+ players involved.

When the 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell I was checking (right or wrongly) hoping he'd bet, I'd call and the Clarkmeister would fall into place. Which it did.

I'm not too concerned with betting the flop since my original plan was to C/R. Later my goal was to see if I could get HU OOP when the 4th flush fell, then bet into him.

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Hi Fair nothing wrong with going for a flop check/raise here but the turn check is just asking to get beat.

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Very well could have gotten beat and there are no doubt worse plays to rag on but, in the end the hand played out the way I wanted it to. I wanted to test the Clarkmeister for myself and in 40,000 hands of 1/2 this was my first real chance.

Besides, you don't see me posting "1/2 is a Rock Garden" or "I'm getting killed at 1/2" posts. My game is fine. I only wanted to share a Clarkmeister hand. Sorry fellas... I'll go back to lurking, I never asked for advice on my play.

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[Aaron W.]

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My game is fine. I only wanted to share a Clarkmeister hand. Sorry fellas... I'll go back to lurking, I never asked for advice on my play.

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You're welcome to believe this, but you really did screw up this hand and I seriously doubt that the rest of your game is perfect. You can go back to lurking, but you'll never derive the full benefit of what this board provides if you do so.

[sean c]

Hey Fair relax. When people post entire hands on these forums people usually reply about the street or streets that they feel were misplayed which in this hand is the turn the rest looks good as long as you planned on folding to a river raise and this was a good post. FWIW you probably need to change you read on this player not many tags check a missed flop after 3-betting pre flop heads up. As Aaron has already pointed out you will gain more here from participating than lurking.

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Hey Fair relax. When people post entire hands on these forums people usually reply about the street or streets that they feel were misplayed which in this hand is the turn the rest looks good as long as you planned on folding to a river raise and this was a good post. FWIW you probably need to change you read on this player not many tags check a missed flop after 3-betting pre flop heads up. As Aaron has already pointed out you will gain more here from participating than lurking.

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As I said, I was going to C/R and lead out the turn. PT had him TAG and he never checked after coldcalling two preflop or raising the flop. I've learned plenty here from just reading/lurking and there aren't many hands left which haven't been posted that can be searched out.

Some guys just enjoy doling out advice to the "AK is killing me" and "Stat check please" posts to get their 'Carpal Tunnel' gloss. Maybe someone else can learn about the Clarkmeister Theory from this post and put it to use, that was the intent. But thanks for all of the sage advice. I'll rework the game to implement it all.

Not everyone's game hinges on just one hand, and this one isn't indicative of my overall game. If some think so, then they had better crack open SSHE again. I was screwing around wanted to go Clark on this guy to see what happens. I'm sure many of the responders have done worse than this, or tilted off far more chips than I have by screwing around with a theory here. My bad fellas...

Thanks sean.

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