A typical 6 Max hand that's giving me trouble...

[PygmyHero]

I'm not going to dig up a specific hand from my PT database as I feel it isn't necessary to talk about some of the concepts involved here.

Basically the setup is that I have Ax and open raise. Only one of the blinds calls (usually the BB). The flop does not pair or otherwise help me, and the blind leads out. Note that the pot is now offering me 5.5:1 on a call (if it is the BB defending. I get 6:1 if it is the SB).

Assume whatever you need to about the flop such that calling is not obvious. That is, I don't have a made hands, I did not pair, I don't have a good draw, and I usually have only one overcard.

If being suited or not makes a big difference in your answer, please tell me how the following scenarios affect your action:
1. I have a backdoor flush and the board is rainbow,
2. I have a backdoor flush and the board is two suited (not in my suit), and
3. if I caught none of my suit

If my exact position or the exact value of my kicker card affects your answer, you can assume I am playing a reasonable hand given my position (that is, if I am UTG I have ATo or better, if I am MP I have A9o or better, if I am the CO I have A7o or better, if I am the button I have any ace. If I am suited, the kicker card can drop a little.).

In these situations the flop is usually K, Q, or J high (i.e. I think the blind could have TP). If the exact texture affects your answer, please describe which kinds of boards lead to which actions.

Here are the problems that I'm having:
1. If I fold, I lose the hand.
2. If I call I will almost always be bet into or cr-ed on the turn.
3. If I raise I am almost always called and sometimes led into on the turn. If not, and I check behind, they will bet the river close to 100% of the time (barring a scare card). If I bet the turn, I am frequently called, and I don't know if my A high is good for showdown (though I think not) - should I fold to a river bet and take a free showdown? Basically I find I have very little folding equity at any point in the hand.

My experience is that when I am bet into on the flop like this, they usually have TP, meaning I am drawing to only 3 outs (my ace). In some cases, they have a small PP or MP and I have 5 outs, but I still do not have the odds to call, and these will be even worse on the turn.

Bonus question - what if they check raise me on the flop? I now have 7.5:1 (against the BB, and 8:1 against the SB). Usually I feel that their action indicates a stronger hand, meaning I probably don't have as many outs, and may be drawing very thin (against 2 pair or a set).

Right now I think this is the biggest problem in my 6 max game (I'm not sure if its losing the most money for me, but it is the most troubling), so you input is greatly appreciated.

[Koss]

Eh, this is really more of a reads issue here. I would really like to know what kinds of hands the BB will lead with. If he only bets his made hands, I raise UTG with AT, and he donks a Qxx flop I'm done. I'm a sucker for BDFD's so if I had one of those I might see the turn. I don't really care if the flop is 2 suited or rainbow. I'm not too concerned with flush draws heads up.

Now if I raise from the button with Ax and the BB is aggressive I might raise to take control of the hand. You'd be suprised how many times an aggressive BB will donk a preflop raiser with nothing or a very weak draw on a ragged board.

But for your hypothetical situation assuming an unkown player in the BB, I'll usually fold to his donk with no pair no draw.

[PygmyHero]

Reads: yes, I wanted to mention something about that, but my post was already too long as it was.

I was going to say that these situation should be answered sans reads. Not becuase I never have one, but because if I had one, I wouldn't ask the question.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate that you actually replied to the situations in my OP (which I admit were numberous).

I am usually thinking fold here, but I know someone's dying to accuse me of a weak tight play.

[deception5]

A few of my thoughts on the subject from a session review which were posted a few days ago which may or may not be useful... of course it is highly opponent dependent whether you should play on or not (the higher the limit and the more aggressive the opponent the more likely they are testing you). Against a straightforward opponent you may be able to just go ahead and fold.

A good flop for us that doesn't hit our hand is generally a ragged flop. 222 is awesome, 442 is a great flop, 468 is decent. JJT is not really very good as it connects with too many hands (either by making pairs or by making good draws). K83r is a very good board because with one card in the "strike zone", no draws possible (not even gutshots), and only one possible overcard, a bet will give us a lot of information. We'd really prefer not to have any cards 9-K and if there are 2 cards in that range I'm generally looking to bail depending on my opinion of the opponent (I may bet if they check/fold a lot but if they call I'm done with the hand). If I know they aren't folding but will keep betting it's an easy fold.

In some ways it's easier to play against a tag as we have a reasonable idea of their range and we also know they are capable of laying down hands. If the board is ragged, sometimes instead of calling down, a turn raise makes sense as it may get a better ace to fold and costs the same as calling down. Obviously if they call the raise or 3-bet we're not putting in any more money. We know a lot of these players are bet/fold capable so once in a while I like to test them. With AK calling down is clearly better.

Depending upon the level of aggression in our opponent, sometimes it's correct to just call down with ace high. If the opponent bets every street regardless, we'll very often have the best hand at showdown as there's a good chance the board didn't hit him either. This is particularly true with very loose and very aggressive players (generally better players won't bluff all 3 streets). Remember ace high has a great deal of showdown value against a maniac - much better to have that at showdown unimproved than QJs or even KQs (remember there's a good chance of splitting with other low aces too - so even A2 is much better than KQ unimproved).

As far as not getting your money in with the worst hand, even if the opponent is very aggressive it's usually better to just calldown with AK than to try and get more money out of them. Your hand is very vulnerable and the opponent is going to usually punish you with a pair and go passive without. Unless your opponent is an absolute nut you're often pushing hard when your opponent is ahead. Wait till you hit something decent and punish them - and you get the opportunity to do that a lot at 6-max.

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We'd really prefer not to have any cards 9-K and if there are 2 cards in that range I'm generally looking to bail depending on my opinion of the opponent (I may bet if they check/fold a lot but if they call I'm done with the hand).

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D5, this was my initial reaction when I read this post too, so I was gratified to read this. But, I'm really not sure what to do if I do stay in the hand. Do you usually call or raise here?

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As far as not getting your money in with the worst hand, even if the opponent is very aggressive it's usually better to just calldown with AK than to try and get more money out of them.

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This seems to suggest you just call, but I wasn't sure if this was specific to AK or a particular hand, or if your rule of thumb is just to call down with A high vs. one card in the playing zone. I think this is a really common tough situation, so I appreciate your (and everyone's) thoughts.

[deception5]

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We'd really prefer not to have any cards 9-K and if there are 2 cards in that range I'm generally looking to bail depending on my opinion of the opponent (I may bet if they check/fold a lot but if they call I'm done with the hand).

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D5, this was my initial reaction when I read this post too, so I was gratified to read this. But, I'm really not sure what to do if I do stay in the hand. Do you usually call or raise here?

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The more drawy the board the more likely I am to raise the turn and check behind on the river. Against a really aggressive opponent calling down is the most effective as they will almost always bet a busted draw or even complete garbage on every street. Some really aggressive opponents will 3-bet you with nothing on the turn which makes just calling down better against them (wait until you have a hand to get 3-bet). If you always folded when led into on the flop though you wouldn't lose much, especially if the opponents are unobservant.

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As far as not getting your money in with the worst hand, even if the opponent is very aggressive it's usually better to just calldown with AK than to try and get more money out of them.

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This seems to suggest you just call, but I wasn't sure if this was specific to AK or a particular hand, or if your rule of thumb is just to call down with A high vs. one card in the playing zone. I think this is a really common tough situation, so I appreciate your (and everyone's) thoughts.

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The idea is that with AK on a drawless board, raising the turn is usually going to get called (or 3-bet) by a better hand while folding a worse ace who may pay you an extra bet on the river. This is not the case with A2 since you'd love for a better ace to fold the turn.

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The idea is that with AK on a drawless board, raising the turn is usually going to get called (or 3-bet) by a better hand while folding a worse ace who may pay you an extra bet on the river. This is not the case with A2 since you'd love for a better ace to fold the turn.

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Ah, makes sense. Thanks.