I have no idea if this was a river bluff raise or not [Archive]

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RunDownHouse

11-10-2005, 02:20 AM

Villian is a little loose, a little passive. IOW, nothing really stands out.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB folds, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises...

The turn donk was so weird I felt I had to continue. Then I saw the K pop up on the river and thought I could fold out a J or a higher PP. Should I have popped the turn and made that the last bets I put in? Looking back, I can't imagine what I was thinking on the turn.

DMBFan23

11-10-2005, 02:26 AM

whatever you do with A high could compliment this nicely

RunDownHouse

11-10-2005, 09:42 AM

Bump for day crew.

Wynton

11-10-2005, 09:59 AM

I know you're asking about the river, but the turn is interesting to me. I too get confused by this donk bet, and in your circumstances, I usually end up folding. But I'm interesting in hearing whether other people think this is too weak.

And if it makes sense to fold the turn, does it follow that this type of board (if it's possible to generalize) is a good one for bluffing with a donk bet, from the villain's perspective?

spydog

11-10-2005, 10:13 AM

Slightly passive opponents don't make good folders.

Fold to the turn donk. He's got a K/J/5 enough for this to be a straight fold. If he doesn't have any of those then he has a flush and/or straight draw with at least 1, but probably 2 overcards, so his equity when behind isn't all that bad.

Winning every pot is a pipe dream.

11-10-2005, 10:24 AM

Yeah fold the turn.

11-10-2005, 10:48 AM

I see these turn donk bets from moderately competent players as often meaning they hit top or middle pair, but the 2-flush scares them. When the turn is a blank, they feel comfortable betting out because they really don't want you to get a free card.

I don't see a "little passive" player betting that river without a hand that beats you. How often does that river raise push out a better hand? I really don't know.

wackjob

11-10-2005, 12:11 PM

fold it on the turn. pot is still small and you are so very often beat.

krimson

11-10-2005, 12:17 PM

I think that donk on the turn means he has some piece of the board almost 100% of the time. Any piece of the board has you beat.

Wynton

11-10-2005, 12:33 PM

Let me repeat my earlier question: since we all agree that turn-donk bet means villain has something, could that bet be a good bluff too?

In other words, if you're in villain's spot without much of a hand - and you knew that hero was smart and attentive - might you try the donk as a bluff?

RunDownHouse

11-10-2005, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that donk on the turn means he has some piece of the board almost 100% of the time. Any piece of the board has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
How big of a part of his range is a J, and how often does he fold the J to a raise? We can pretty heavily discount a 5 from his range, right?

11-10-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that donk on the turn means he has some piece of the board almost 100% of the time. Any piece of the board has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
How big of a part of his range is a J, and how often does he fold the J to a raise? We can pretty heavily discount a 5 from his range, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would we discount a 5? He's in the BB, which means he could have damn near anything. His turn donk bet may simply represent straight forward play where he doesn't want to risk you checking behind on the turn.

Surfbullet

11-10-2005, 01:23 PM

hey RDH,

I don't like the river raise. The pot isn't that big, and I don't see villain giving you credit for the K the way you played your hand...you'll get called by a J or PP a surprising amount of the time.

I probably fold to the turn donkbet. It's a weird play, but not one that is used as a bluff often enough for me to sweat it.

Surf

tansoku

11-10-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let me repeat my earlier question: since we all agree that turn-donk bet means villain has something, could that bet be a good bluff too?

In other words, if you're in villain's spot without much of a hand - and you knew that hero was smart and attentive - might you try the donk as a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that imply that you have to have been playing LP for it to work?
If someone 24/12/2 or something does this, and you are hero here do you fold?

Wynton

11-10-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me repeat my earlier question: since we all agree that turn-donk bet means villain has something, could that bet be a good bluff too?

In other words, if you're in villain's spot without much of a hand - and you knew that hero was smart and attentive - might you try the donk as a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that imply that you have to have been playing LP for it to work?
If someone 24/12/2 or something does this, and you are hero here do you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand what you're saying. My point before was that, since everyone here seems to agree that hero should fold the turn because the turn-donk means villain has a real hand, perhaps it also means that the turn-donk is an effective bluff.

I'm always trying to figure out good ways to use donk bets, so I thought the example posed might present such a case.

RunDownHouse

11-10-2005, 05:39 PM

He's saying that a donk means something when it comes from a LP. If I see "Wynton" donk me, I'm going to interpret it differently than when this villian does it. That's what he meant, anyways.

In any case, I'm pretty convinced that the turn is a fold, although I really don't think the villian has a 5 here very often. From what I've seen of 5/10 over the past month, most opponents wouldn't be able to resist the c/r here with trips, and if I get bet/3bet I make a note immediately. Still, a 5 is possible, a K more likely, and a J most likely I think. I play bad.

Wynton

11-10-2005, 06:05 PM

Oh, now I see. Yeah, I guess a donk-bet bluff might not work too well unless you had a certain lp image in the first place.

joker122

11-10-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, if you're in villain's spot without much of a hand - and you knew that hero was smart and attentive - might you try the donk as a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

not with that board aginst a pfr.