Confessions of a mediocre tournament player [Archive]

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McMelchior

11-10-2005, 12:27 AM

I mostly play NLHE tournaments, and I don't do well in them.

I don't do horrifyingly either - thankfully it's been more than two years since I had to replenish my account. I've even been able to make a couple of cash-outs after big wins, and I have likewise had a couple of live tournament cashes, including one during the WSOP 2005.

So why am I unhappy? The problem is that I make a (relatively large) number of mistakes - in basically each and every tournament I play.

The mistakes seem to fall into two categories: Those caused by things I don't do (that is, I tend to play scared and way to passive when the conditions dictates a more active approach), and those caused by things I do (when I try to compensate for my too passive play by attempting aggressive plays that I'm not skilled enough to pull off).

The most inspiring thing I've read recently is about Sirio's "perfect poker" concept. For those of you who are unfamiliar with it I recommend checking his excellent blog (http://sirio11.blogspot.com/).

Applying the concept in practice confronts me with a decission: I feel I play my best poker when I play within my "comfort zone"; a highly conservative/tight approach, with strong emphasis on preflop reads and play. I'm cable of making steals from LP, but by all means not in every orbit. Playing this way my game presents itself as un-inspired and way too claustrofobic; ultimately my results end up hinging to a very high extent on whether I pick up playable hands during the long mid-phases of the tournament or not. Playing this way leads to numerous, inconsequential cashes, that steadily depletes my bank roll. And yet it seems to be my strongest poker.

Alternatively in my quest for "perfect poker" I can choose to apply a much more aggressive, proactive strategy. Actually, I feel I must play this way at certain points in my tournaments, to counteract the thermodynamic heat-death of seeing my good stack losing it's power and potential as the blinds goes up and the average stack-sizes catches up with what was once one of the big stacks.

All my big finished and final tables have been due to grave errors, where I got lucky and hit 3-outers against strong made hands. I appreciate Harrington's oppinion (paraphrased from memory) that you can't win a tournament without at least once getting your chips in as a huge underdog and hitting a perfect card. But getting lucky shouldn't be a part of a basic tournament strategy aimed at getting my within reach of the money in the first place.

In spite of decent reads (I'm rarely wrong when I sense weakness in my opponent) and at least familiarity with the "dark tunnel bluff" concept, most of my tournament's end when I hand over a large part of my stack to an opponent during failed bluff attempts. My inability to play well post flop (unless I hit the nuts) and my insisting on making this kind of moves in spite of this typically devastates those tournaments where I manage to build a good stack early on.

Man, it's frustrating.

Here's one from tonight's $5 re-buy. I've been hovering as a nice-sized stack through the first 3 hours, but a spell of unplayable cards has frozen my stack, and it's suddenly at risk of getting - if not short, then average.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t16400)
SB (t30560)
Hero (t43692)
UTG (t12131)
UTG+1 (t7677)
MP1 (t12520)
MP2 (t33652)
MP3 (t55106)
CO (t71684)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
7 folds, SB raises to t3600,

My history with villain here is, that he's been the second most aggressive player at the table for the last hour. I happily put him on a wide range of hands when he open-raises from the SB, and decide to risk a little more than 5% of my chips to "see the future" and maybe take the pot away from him:

Hero calls t2400.

Flop: (t7,875) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

SB checks,

I'm 90% convinced he's weak here. So I decide to put him to the test:

Hero bets t8,400, SB calls t8,400.

Dang, I'd much rather see him fold here. There are two spades on the board, and a possible str8. Unless he holds the absolut nuts with a flush re-draw (QsTs) the flat call makes no sense to me - or rather, it tells me that he's far from happy with his hand. With his history of aggression I have no doubt he would have CR'ed a flopped set.

Turn: (t24,675) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

SB checks

Is it here I'm supposed to push? I'd hate for him to put me on a flush draw and call me down with Ax. And I get scared. What if I'm wrong, and he's actually looking at AQ or AJ, just being to donky to CR the flop? I decide that if I was the one holding a strong hand he's expect me to slowplay it here.

Hero checks (Meh...)

River: (t24,675) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

SB checks,

Oh, that river is great. No way I can put him on a T or a runner-runner flush. But that is what he should fear from me! Let me see, he's got t18,000 left, enough to have a chance for a comeback if he folds. But moving all-in is like screaming "I don't want you to call me". I decide that 2/3 of his stack (that's also half the pot, and nice round amount) should be optimally difficult for him to call of, unless he's sitting on the flush or the str8:

Hero bets t12,000

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

southgapoker

11-10-2005, 12:34 AM

So he had Q/10?

Nepa

11-10-2005, 12:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I mostly play NLHE tournaments, and I don't do well in them.

I don't do horrifyingly either - thankfully it's been more than two years since I had to replenish my account. I've even been able to make a couple of cash-outs after big wins, and I have likewise had a couple of live tournament cashes, including one during the WSOP 2005.

So why am I unhappy? The problem is that I make a (relatively large) number of mistakes - in basically each and every tournament I play.

The mistakes seem to fall into two categories: Those caused by things I don't do (that is, I tend to play scared and way to passive when the conditions dictates a more active approach), and those caused by things I do (when I try to compensate for my too passive play by attempting aggressive plays that I'm not skilled enough to pull off).

The most inspiring thing I've read recently is about Sirio's "perfect poker" concept. For those of you who are unfamiliar with it I recommend checking his excellent blog (http://sirio11.blogspot.com/).

Applying the concept in practice confronts me with a decission: I feel I play my best poker when I play within my "comfort zone"; a highly conservative/tight approach, with strong emphasis on preflop reads and play. I'm cable of making steals from LP, but by all means not in every orbit. Playing this way my game presents itself as un-inspired and way too claustrofobic; ultimately my results end up hinging to a very high extent on whether I pick up playable hands during the long mid-phases of the tournament or not. Playing this way leads to numerous, inconsequential cashes, that steadily depletes my bank roll. And yet it seems to be my strongest poker.

Alternatively in my quest for "perfect poker" I can choose to apply a much more aggressive, proactive strategy. Actually, I feel I must play this way at certain points in my tournaments, to counteract the thermodynamic heat-death of seeing my good stack losing it's power and potential as the blinds goes up and the average stack-sizes catches up with what was once one of the big stacks.

All my big finished and final tables have been due to grave errors, where I got lucky and hit 3-outers against strong made hands. I appreciate Harrington's oppinion (paraphrased from memory) that you can't win a tournament without at least once getting your chips in as a huge underdog and hitting a perfect card. But getting lucky shouldn't be a part of a basic tournament strategy aimed at getting my within reach of the money in the first place.

In spite of decent reads (I'm rarely wrong when I sense weakness in my opponent) and at least familiarity with the "dark tunnel bluff" concept, most of my tournament's end when I hand over a large part of my stack to an opponent during failed bluff attempts. My inability to play well post flop (unless I hit the nuts) and my insisting on making this kind of moves in spite of this typically devastates those tournaments where I manage to build a good stack early on.

Man, it's frustrating.

Here's one from tonight's $5 re-buy. I've been hovering as a nice-sized stack through the first 3 hours, but a spell of unplayable cards has frozen my stack, and it's suddenly at risk of getting - if not short, then average.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t16400)
SB (t30560)
Hero (t43692)
UTG (t12131)
UTG+1 (t7677)
MP1 (t12520)
MP2 (t33652)
MP3 (t55106)
CO (t71684)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
7 folds, SB raises to t3600,

My history with villain here is, that he's been the second most aggressive player at the table for the last hour. I happily put him on a wide range of hands when he open-raises from the SB, and decide to risk a little more than 5% of my chips to "see the future" and maybe take the pot away from him:

Hero calls t2400.

Flop: (t7,875) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

SB checks,

I'm 90% convinced he's weak here. So I decide to put him to the test:

Hero bets t8,400, SB calls t8,400.

Dang, I'd much rather see him fold here. There are two spades on the board, and a possible str8. Unless he holds the absolut nuts with a flush re-draw (QsTs) the flat call makes no sense to me - or rather, it tells me that he's far from happy with his hand. With his history of aggression I have no doubt he would have CR'ed a flopped set.

Turn: (t24,675) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

SB checks

Is it here I'm supposed to push? I'd hate for him to put me on a flush draw and call me down with Ax. And I get scared. What if I'm wrong, and he's actually looking at AQ or AJ, just being to donky to CR the flop? I decide that if I was the one holding a strong hand he's expect me to slowplay it here.

Hero checks (Meh...)

River: (t24,675) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

SB checks,

Oh, that river is great. No way I can put him on a T or a runner-runner flush. But that is what he should fear from me! Let me see, he's got t18,000 left, enough to have a chance for a comeback if he folds. But moving all-in is like screaming "I don't want you to call me". I decide that 2/3 of his stack (that's also half the pot, and nice round amount) should be optimally difficult for him to call of, unless he's sitting on the flush or the str8:

Hero bets t12,000

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet about half the pot on the river on a pure bluff at this point. If i checked and he turned over 6 7 spades I would throw my computer out the window.

I have to edit this. I think I would give up on the river because I know most ppl. in a 5 dollar tournament are going to call with a very wide range of hands here. You might even get a call by someone with a bad ace. I don't really think your bet is the worst bet in the world.

McMelchior

11-10-2005, 12:40 AM

1. Results are not interesting. Thoughts and actions are.

2. No.

McMelchior (Johan)

adanthar

11-10-2005, 12:41 AM

Well, first things first: in a $5 rebuy you shouldn't be bluffing nearly as much as sirio or almost any other regular on this board. Having said that, stealing every orbit is not even what most people do - given what you've described, I think you would do better by trying to play less scared while remaining TAG. (To put it another way, working on your bubble and resteal aggressiveness is more important than just stealing more, IMO.)

This is how I would play your hand: call preflop, check/fold thereafter. I would also accept making it 12K if the buyin was higher, or making one 5000-ish stab at the pot on the flop and shutting down. But after he calls an overbet on the flop for a third of his stack (in a $5 tournament) there's no point in betting again, and the overbet itself looks pretty bluffy.

Making it 12K PF (and then either shutting down or pushing when you hit this flop depending on how likely he is to fold an A5o) is the far better play if you're gonna decide to be aggressive, IMO.

southgapoker

11-10-2005, 12:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Results are not interesting. Thoughts and actions are.

2. No.

McMelchior (Johan)

[/ QUOTE ]It's a hand that will take days for me to decipher.

Exitonly

11-10-2005, 12:56 AM

i'm w/ Adanthar.

i call PF and then check-fold w/o hitting. And if i were to try and take it away from him, i wouldnt make a huge bet, maybe like 5-6k and then abandon it.

jcm4ccc

11-10-2005, 01:05 AM

I don’t know if this hand represents your usual level of play, but I do think that in this instance you played the hand poorly.

preflop
You seem to suspect that the SB is making a steal, and yet you seem afraid to challenge him. 78s is a very difficult hand to play heads up on the flop, so I think a call preflop is about the worst of your options. Folding is ok. Reraising is ok. Calling sucks. [well, I've just read from two better players that calling is what they would do. oh well]

flop
That Ace should worry you, because the SB is probably 90% certain that you don’t have an Ace (or you would have repopped him preflop). Then, when you overbet the flop, the SB knew you didn’t have an ace, and probably knew you didn’t have a King either. A bet of 4500 or so, paradoxically, would have been much more scary to your opponent than your bet of 8400.

turn, river
At this point, the SB has put in over 1/3 of his chips. He is very unlikely to fold. You have nothing. It’s time to give this hand up.

Annulus

11-10-2005, 01:14 AM

I can relate to alot of what you are saying. I like Adanthars line also. One thing that has helped me alot lately is giving up on a hand. I will take a stab just like you did here on the flop (smaller bet tho) and after he calls I will give up. Don't get discouraged because you lost some chips. This is part of poker, you can't win every pot. Keep fancy plays to a minimum at the low buy-in tourneys. Good luck.

Nepa

11-10-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can relate to alot of what you are saying. I like Adanthars line also. One thing that has helped me alot lately is giving up on a hand. I will take a stab just like you did here on the flop (smaller bet tho) and after he calls I will give up. Don't get discouraged because you lost some chips. This is part of poker, you can't win every pot. Keep fancy plays to a minimum at the low buy-in tourneys. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a problem if you do this all the time(bet the flop and give up). A smarter player is going to pick up on this and pull a 'call bluff' on you.

MikeSmith

11-10-2005, 01:25 AM

I have gone through this exact same mentality for years in the tournaments. After the first break of a tourney when im 5x the average stack and after the third break everyone caught up. Now i feel the need i have to go outside of my usual game and make stupid moves with marginal hands just so i can have that "above average feeling".

First off, i now ignore how everyone else in chips is doing(i ll pay attention to their stacks at the FT but thats it), i cant control their stacks, i can only control my own and i will not change my game just because they doubled up to close to my stack. I mainly look at how my stack is relative to the blinds and i will change my game when i feel that the blinds are requiring me to do so. I have put myself in the same marginal situation that you have described time and again. We make plays that are outside of our abilities or are simply unnecessary or just dumb plays.

In the situation you were in i would have folded and say to myself "I ll pick a better spot". As in a situation where i start out as the aggressor and/or have a premium hand or good draw.

ZootMurph

11-10-2005, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
7 folds, SB raises to t3600,

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a hyperaggressive player, I'm reraising preflop to put him to the test, not after the flop where almost any two cards beat me. I'll put him to the test by making it 1/3 of his stack, or 10800 to go. I'd fold to an allin reraise, still having over 30k chips to work with. If he calls that large reraise, I'm done with the hand unless I flop something REALLY nice. With 30k chips left, I'm not exactly happy to give up a big pot, but I'm also very happy to be able to continue playing in the tournament with a decent chip stack in relation to the blinds.

Annulus

11-10-2005, 01:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can relate to alot of what you are saying. I like Adanthars line also. One thing that has helped me alot lately is giving up on a hand. I will take a stab just like you did here on the flop (smaller bet tho) and after he calls I will give up. Don't get discouraged because you lost some chips. This is part of poker, you can't win every pot. Keep fancy plays to a minimum at the low buy-in tourneys. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a problem if you do this all the time(bet the flop and give up). A smarter player is going to pick up on this and pull a 'call bluff' on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant more in this example.

HoldingFolding

11-10-2005, 01:48 AM

Love your work McMelchior, love your work. I was just about to make a post containing this line [ QUOTE ]
most of my tournament's end when I hand over a large part of my stack to an opponent during failed bluff attempts.

[/ QUOTE ] , but I think my selective memory may be kicking in because I also tend to build my stack with bluffs too.

Care to elaborate on the "dark tunnel bluff" concept?

As an aside your hand reminds me of this one of mine (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3893241&an=0&page=0#Post 3893241) in the STT forum which is currently taking a lot of abuse.

nath

11-10-2005, 02:18 AM

Too much thinking. Listen to your instincts.

Reraise preflop if you think he's weak. Make the move when the move is to be made; he who hesitates is lost.

11-10-2005, 03:14 AM

Dark Tunnel Bluff is from Harrington on Hold 'Em Vol 2.

"...reminds me of how many beginners and intermediate players approach poker hands. They find themselves making bets which aren't really bluffs, but aren't really value bets either. They're just - bets. I call these "Dark Tunnel" bluffs. You don't know where you stand, you dont know really what you're doing, but it feels more active to bet than not, so you put more money in the pot. Eventually you've lost a big pot where you never really had much of a chance."

I think the solution to your problem is on this very same page.

Quoting the master of masters:

"Always know why you are making a bet, and what you expect to gain. Every good bet should either give you a chance to win the pot right there, or provide you with information about your opponent's cards thta you can act on through the rest of the hand."

Just remember that everytime you're thinking about betting. Don't hope, reason it out and know why you're betting and what you're going to do if you get called/raised etc.

What I like to do is take a bit of time if I get called or raised. A little hesitation might cause you to see the situation better and save you chips.

ajizzle

11-10-2005, 03:38 AM

I had the same problem as you did for a long time. Within the last month however, I have opened up my game a little and it has worked wonders to my results. A little luck doesnt hurt either.

But on to the point, the first thing i did to open up was punish limpers. I think this is more important that stealing blinds or protecting your blind. When in LP and in the 2nd+ hour, if i have a healthy stack, I punish the limpers. If in LP, I will raise to 4x about 80% of the time when there is 1 limper, to 5-6x about 60% of the time with 2 limpers. In MP, about 50% of the time to 4x when there is one limper. Also, I try to raise to 5x from the sb when there is EP-MP limper, and 5.5x if there is one EP and one LP limper. There's more to it than just randomly choosing when to make these steals. Try to do it against players that have slightly lower stacks than yours. If they are low, they will push more often, if they are big, they will call and try to outflop/outplay you. Note: I try not do this too much from the BB with air, cuz anyone who has read/heard of TPFAF will instinctively think you are stealing.

As a side note, you can't be afraid to make a healthy continuation bet on the flop when you miss completely. If you can't do this, you are just throwing chips away. The PF steal works about 60% of the time, but the flop bets works another 75%, so it is very important to keep the pressure up. Finally, you can't get attached to a hand if you catch some of the flop. I recently busted out late in a tourney when i raised a limper with 96s and flopped top pair on a 977 flop. He didnt release his TT and by then end of the hand, i was crippled. Although this will happen sometimes, you must be willing to make the continuation bet on the flop. Just remember though, unless a scare card hits the turn, or you have some read that tells you he will fold on the turn, dont expect an out of position player to release a hand after calling a raise before the flop, and a healthy bet on the flop.

CardSharpCook

11-10-2005, 04:12 AM

One of the poker truisms I've come across is that when a player checks when you expect him to bet, it usually menas he just made his hand and has been excited into inaction.

JustPlayingSmart

11-10-2005, 06:27 AM

You bet too much on the flop. There is no need to bet more than the pot here. If I was to bet I would bet around 4500. I would bet 4500 with any hand I planned on betting here, so while I may have a bluff, I may also have a strong hand. The river bluff depends on the type of $5 rebuy player you are against. If you are against a guy who calls because he has QJ and 2 pair here, then it fails. But you may also be against a weak tight guy who will fold because he thinks a straight is highly likely from you. You said that part of your strength is in your preflop reads, so maybe you have some sense of this player's category.

The other thing is that you have a very healthy stack for this stage of a $5 rebuy, and I don't think you "have to" make any moves right now. I'm not saying that you shouldn't make any moves, but you have enough chips that you could miss out on a couple steals and still be fine.

I would say that most of the big scores of posters on this forum have resulted from making aggressive plays that put them in bad spots and then sucking out. They continue to make those plays because a lot of the time they steal rather large pots with minimal risk.

BCl

11-10-2005, 11:15 AM

I cant believe with all the info and great insight from great players ive gotten on this site that the 1st thing that came to my mind when i read how this hand was played came right out of Brunsons Super System....Get aggressive when you HAVE AN OUT....you had no out at all.
As a pretty regular $5 dollar player however ill offer this insight, most guys who hit this flop hard are all-in right then...the fact that he called your bet tells me hes got at least a piece if not the nuts and is perfectly willing to let you lead with all the chips you want to put in...maybe he's drawing as well but id be willing to bet he's already got a nice chunk of this flop and your not being all-in tells him your not sure your piece is bigger than his.
I'm in the same boat you are i assure you, im so tired of 25th- 35th place finishes i could scream....but getting into a heads up duel with suited connectors is not on my list of ways to get better..good luck and i hope we meet at a final table soon /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sam T.

11-10-2005, 11:34 AM

Hey Johann,

Obviously I don't know if any of my advice is is applicable, but what you say sounds familiar, so I'll give it a shot.

Most of my outbreaks of moronitis (this is what I call it when I try to bluff a calling station, call two big stack all-ins with TT or JJ, etc.) come when I make decisions too quickly. I have my hand on the mouse when the action is to me, and next thing I know, all my chips are in the middle. Playing perfect poker requries thought, and in these cases I'm not thinking, but reacting.

What I need to do is think more before I act. I want to get in the habit of never putting chips in the middle until the dealer says it's my turn to act. (I think EverettKings says he always waits until his name has flashed three times.) I cannot remember the last time I used up much of my time bank, and there is no reason for this.

Take time and think. That's the only way we're going to play perfect poker.

Good luck,

Sam

McMelchior

11-10-2005, 02:59 PM

Thank you for thoughtful (and thought-provoking) advise and comments from all.

Villain had been rather aggressive, and in addition to picking up a sense of weakness I also felt a need to "put my foot down" ("I'm going to make sure this over-aggressive @#$% has stolen his last chip from me"). Well, getting overly emotional (whether scared or pissed) is probably not conducive to "perfect play". Breathe, breathe, remember Yoga, as the dog says.

My read was correct, btw. He flat called my river bet (leaving himself with t6,000) and took the pot down with his A5.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)