I lost $450 yesterday multitabling 20-table SNGs

[betgo]

I played in 25 in these and made two second tables and no final tables.

Without going into bad beats, there were several times I had the chips to make the final table but lost big hands. Of course, I play to make the final 3 or final 6, which is where the money is, rather than to make the second table or final table.

I find the later play in these reasonably tough and pretty aggressive. I find resteals work well later on, as people are never letting the pot go unraised to the blinds, and a lot of times they will fold to reraises.

I played in a lot of them, because they started having them all the time. I guess it's just variance, as I have an OK rate at them overall. I guess I will try some more tonight and hope for better results. I will try listening again to this paraliminal CD my girlfriend gave me to improve results in competitions.

I may be better off spending my time playing the big higher buyin tournament or playing supersatellites and rebuys, which I am good at.

Ouch mate, but look at it this way, a few hot streaks and you are + again. IIRC the winner gets like 1000$? You are capable of winning one so get back in there winning. I have yet to play these so I have no idea how hard the competition is.

[betgo]

I'm plus overall. Have a few final tables. In one, I got a little more than 2nd place money in a 3-way chop.

This is well within variance. Sucks, but 22.5 buy-ins is to be expected pretty frequently in this top-heavy stuff.

[Toddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I played in 25 in these and made two second tables and no final tables.

Without going into bad beats, there were several times I had the chips to make the final table but lost big hands. Of course, I play to make the final 3 or final 6, which is where the money is, rather than to make the second table or final table.

I find the later play in these reasonably tough and pretty aggressive. I find resteals work well later on, as people are never letting the pot go unraised to the blinds, and a lot of times they will fold to reraises.

I played in a lot of them, because they started having them all the time. I guess it's just variance, as I have an OK rate at them overall. I guess I will try some more tonight and hope for better results. I will try listening again to this paraliminal CD my girlfriend gave me to improve results in competitions.

I may be better off spending my time playing the big higher buyin tournament or playing supersatellites and rebuys, which I am good at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im way up on these becaue I have a 1st,2nd and a 4th, but i bet ive cashed in 1 out of my last 15.. I can't get a break on these tourneys

[Skjonne]

In this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3889961&an=0&page=1#Post 3889961) the consensus seems to be, that these are fishier than a regular $20 MTT.

The variance of regular MTT's are a biatch in the first place, so if the 180's have even more variance, then holy......

Me? I played a total 7 of them. Best result: 48th /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[whiskeytown]

played two so far - One was a total chump call of my reraise with just a 10 high flush draw - the other was my KK vs. AA - so that was as deserved as it gets -

ain't seen nothing so far to indicate more or less fishiness - but the, I did spend the first hr. of the one last week completing the Forza Motorsports Endurance Class C challange for more credits.

RB

[mshalen]

Yesterday I played in one where we were down to 73 players at the first break. This low number just yells FISH ARE HERE.

[zambonidrivr]

not sure. perhaps a book like harrington vol 1 &2, might be a good start. post some hands, that might help. this seems like a horrible day, sorry about your luck.

[Toddy]

I can't cash in this damn thing anymore. Last night I came in 19TH

[StableHand]

[ QUOTE ]

I may be better off spending my time playing the big higher buyin tournament or playing supersatellites and rebuys, which I am good at.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you'll do fine, results well within exp var. don't know what kinda hands you were busted on, but i have to agree it's a pushover field, final 30-40 reasonable players. i just found these and love them. played only 4 so far. 2*top 4. busted in 10th with AA in BB - all in vs SB with A4o - flop J44, so it happens all the time. mabbe limit yourself to 2 tables or so?
gl

[Superfluous Man]

Perhaps you aren't getting into the red zone early enough?

Edit: running poorly, you szay?

PokerStars Game #2951949839: Tournament #14562779, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/02 - 00:31:43 (ET)
Table '14562779 4' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Reb3186 (2205 in chips)
Seat 2: Caesar9998 (8930 in chips)
Seat 3: Robby$$$1 (16561 in chips)
Seat 4: zurich (19252 in chips)
Seat 5: ChipG (32049 in chips)
Seat 6: T-Man 20 (8555 in chips)
Seat 8: betgo (20083 in chips)
Seat 9: Pechorin (2265 in chips)
Reb3186: posts the ante 25
Caesar9998: posts the ante 25
Robby$$$1: posts the ante 25
zurich: posts the ante 25
ChipG: posts the ante 25
T-Man 20: posts the ante 25
betgo: posts the ante 25
Pechorin: posts the ante 25
Reb3186: posts small blind 200
Caesar9998: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Pechorin [Qc Ks]
Robby$$$1: folds
zurich: folds
ChipG: folds
T-Man 20: folds
betgo: raises 800 to 1200
Pechorin: raises 1040 to 2240 and is all-in
Reb3186: calls 1980 and is all-in
Caesar9998: folds
betgo: calls 1040
*** FLOP *** [8s Jc 9c]
*** TURN *** [8s Jc 9c] [2h]
Pechorin said, "T time, heh"
*** RIVER *** [8s Jc 9c 2h] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
betgo: shows [8c 4h] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
Pechorin: shows [Qc Ks] (high card King)
betgo collected 120 from side pot
Reb3186: shows [Ad Kc] (high card Ace)
betgo collected 7140 from main pot
T-Man 20 said, "wow"
Caesar9998 said, "ahh the dreaded 8 4"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7260 Main pot 7140. Side pot 120. | Rake 0
Board [8s Jc 9c 2h 4d]
Seat 1: Reb3186 (small blind) showed [Ad Kc] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: Caesar9998 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Robby$$$1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: zurich folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ChipG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: T-Man 20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: betgo showed [8c 4h] and won (7260) with two pair, Eights and Fours
Seat 9: Pechorin (button) showed [Qc Ks] and lost with high card King

[Toddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you aren't getting into the red zone early enough?

Edit: running poorly, you szay?

PokerStars Game #2951949839: Tournament #14562779, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/02 - 00:31:43 (ET)
Table '14562779 4' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Reb3186 (2205 in chips)
Seat 2: Caesar9998 (8930 in chips)
Seat 3: Robby$$$1 (16561 in chips)
Seat 4: zurich (19252 in chips)
Seat 5: ChipG (32049 in chips)
Seat 6: T-Man 20 (8555 in chips)
Seat 8: betgo (20083 in chips)
Seat 9: Pechorin (2265 in chips)
Reb3186: posts the ante 25
Caesar9998: posts the ante 25
Robby$$$1: posts the ante 25
zurich: posts the ante 25
ChipG: posts the ante 25
T-Man 20: posts the ante 25
betgo: posts the ante 25
Pechorin: posts the ante 25
Reb3186: posts small blind 200
Caesar9998: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Pechorin [Qc Ks]
Robby$$$1: folds
zurich: folds
ChipG: folds
T-Man 20: folds
betgo: raises 800 to 1200
Pechorin: raises 1040 to 2240 and is all-in
Reb3186: calls 1980 and is all-in
Caesar9998: folds
betgo: calls 1040
*** FLOP *** [8s Jc 9c]
*** TURN *** [8s Jc 9c] [2h]
Pechorin said, "T time, heh"
*** RIVER *** [8s Jc 9c 2h] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
betgo: shows [8c 4h] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
Pechorin: shows [Qc Ks] (high card King)
betgo collected 120 from side pot
Reb3186: shows [Ad Kc] (high card Ace)
betgo collected 7140 from main pot
T-Man 20 said, "wow"
Caesar9998 said, "ahh the dreaded 8 4"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7260 Main pot 7140. Side pot 120. | Rake 0
Board [8s Jc 9c 2h 4d]
Seat 1: Reb3186 (small blind) showed [Ad Kc] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: Caesar9998 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Robby$$$1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: zurich folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ChipG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: T-Man 20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: betgo showed [8c 4h] and won (7260) with two pair, Eights and Fours
Seat 9: Pechorin (button) showed [Qc Ks] and lost with high card King

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you aren't getting into the red zone early enough?

Edit: running poorly, you szay?

PokerStars Game #2951949839: Tournament #14562779, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/02 - 00:31:43 (ET)
Table '14562779 4' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Reb3186 (2205 in chips)
Seat 2: Caesar9998 (8930 in chips)
Seat 3: Robby$$$1 (16561 in chips)
Seat 4: zurich (19252 in chips)
Seat 5: ChipG (32049 in chips)
Seat 6: T-Man 20 (8555 in chips)
Seat 8: betgo (20083 in chips)
Seat 9: Pechorin (2265 in chips)
Reb3186: posts the ante 25
Caesar9998: posts the ante 25
Robby$$$1: posts the ante 25
zurich: posts the ante 25
ChipG: posts the ante 25
T-Man 20: posts the ante 25
betgo: posts the ante 25
Pechorin: posts the ante 25
Reb3186: posts small blind 200
Caesar9998: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Pechorin [Qc Ks]
Robby$$$1: folds
zurich: folds
ChipG: folds
T-Man 20: folds
betgo: raises 800 to 1200
Pechorin: raises 1040 to 2240 and is all-in
Reb3186: calls 1980 and is all-in
Caesar9998: folds
betgo: calls 1040
*** FLOP *** [8s Jc 9c]
*** TURN *** [8s Jc 9c] [2h]
Pechorin said, "T time, heh"
*** RIVER *** [8s Jc 9c 2h] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
betgo: shows [8c 4h] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
Pechorin: shows [Qc Ks] (high card King)
betgo collected 120 from side pot
Reb3186: shows [Ad Kc] (high card Ace)
betgo collected 7140 from main pot
T-Man 20 said, "wow"
Caesar9998 said, "ahh the dreaded 8 4"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7260 Main pot 7140. Side pot 120. | Rake 0
Board [8s Jc 9c 2h 4d]
Seat 1: Reb3186 (small blind) showed [Ad Kc] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: Caesar9998 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Robby$$$1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: zurich folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ChipG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: T-Man 20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: betgo showed [8c 4h] and won (7260) with two pair, Eights and Fours
Seat 9: Pechorin (button) showed [Qc Ks] and lost with high card King

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't that a nice play. Busted out 2 players. Sometimes you have to play the situation rather than your cards.

man you suck





just kidding

[Superfluous Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't that a nice play. Busted out 2 players. Sometimes you have to play the situation rather than your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh ok, when you suck out it's a "nice play" and a good example of "playing the situation." But when someone puts a bad beat on you they're the kind of donkey who makes you want to only play the $215s because people there will respect those minraises.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't that a nice play. Busted out 2 players. Sometimes you have to play the situation rather than your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh ok, when you suck out it's a "nice play" and a good example of "playing the situation." But when someone puts a bad beat on you they're the kind of donkey who makes you want to only play the $215s because people there will respect those minraises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't miniraise. I raised 3xBB. I had a big stack and it was folded to me in CO. BB was fairly short stacked, but was not pot committed to call. There were 23 players left and 18 seats. I thought the short stacks were scared of busting out on the bubble. They probably needed hands like AKo and KQo to call.

A lot of times I fold good hands and raise with junk. What's wrong with that?

Were you one of the short stacks I busted out? Sorry about the bad beat.

[Melchiades]

It was fine. You tried to steal, and got good odds to call the reraise knowing you most likely had two live cards. Still sucked out with trash vs two decent hands though.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
It was fine. You tried to steal, and got good odds to call the reraise knowing you most likely had two live cards. Still sucked out with trash vs two decent hands though.

[/ QUOTE ]


How dare you insult my hand. I don't play trash. I had a 30% chance to win 3-way. At least I played live cards, rather than the easily dominated KQo.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1337060
pokenum -h 8c 4h - qc ks - ad kc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8c 4h 401458 29.29 964042 70.33 5254 0.38 0.294
Ks Qc 314256 22.93 1042123 76.03 14375 1.05 0.234
Kc Ad 640665 46.74 715714 52.21 14375 1.05 0.472

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't that a nice play. Busted out 2 players. Sometimes you have to play the situation rather than your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh ok, when you suck out it's a "nice play" and a good example of "playing the situation." But when someone puts a bad beat on you they're the kind of donkey who makes you want to only play the $215s because people there will respect those minraises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch how I play. Play with a little more imagination. You tried to fold into the money and only played when you had a big hand against a loose late position raiser. Then you get mad when you bust out. Play more aggressively and you won't wind up short stacked like that.

[Superfluous Man]

[ QUOTE ]

Watch how I play. Play with a little more imagination. You tried to fold into the money and only played when you had a big hand against a loose late position raiser. Then you get mad when you bust out. Play more aggressively and you won't wind up short stacked like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, I apologize for thinking it was a minraise. That was stupid of me.

Anyway, I'm not at all mad about getting busted when I was in the magical red zone. I can't control the board cards, and missing out on a huge $25 payday (or whatever you get for making the final 2 tables) isn't exactly bringing me to tears.

However, I do get annoyed when I see these whiny "omg I'm running so bad, poor me" posts. Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out. That was the point of posting that hand.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

as betgo pointed out, he's 30% in a 3-way pot. with the antes in there, this is a very very slightly -chipEV play.

[SL__72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

as betgo pointed out, he's 30% in a 3-way pot. with the antes in there, this is a very very slightly -chipEV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

But both the initial raise and the call were +EV.

/edit well the raise probably was.

[adanthar]

The raise into two short stacks, at least one of which was making a stand with anything decent, was mediocre at best.

[Superfluous Man]

[ QUOTE ]

But both the initial raise and the call were +EV.

/edit well the raise probably was.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not a fan of raising enough to be committed to call a shorty's push with trash. I would raise more in that situation (if at all). But then again, I'm a donk who gets his chips in with KQ, which as someone who deleted a post earlier, is a dog against A2.

[mts]

are you saying you wouldn't have called with KQ?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise into two short stacks, at least one of which was making a stand with anything decent, was mediocre at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was on the bubble, so I figured they weren't making a stand. Plus the BB was not a real short stack. They only played because they both had standard raising hands. As it happened, even with both short stacks playing, it was EV+ with pot odds. If only one of the short stacks pushed with high cards, it is only slightly EV- with pot odds. This is a very automatic raise.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But both the initial raise and the call were +EV.

/edit well the raise probably was.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not a fan of raising enough to be committed to call a shorty's push with trash. I would raise more in that situation (if at all). But then again, I'm a donk who gets his chips in with KQ, which as someone who deleted a post earlier, is a dog against A2.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I miniraised and a short stack pushed, I would still call with pot odds and two live cards. I don't want the short stacks to think I will fold to a push. Plus I don't want the BB to make a pot odds call. The BB would be likely to call a miniraise with anything, and anything is probably ahead of my hand.

I was kidding about KQo. Pushing was the only play there.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

as betgo pointed out, he's 30% in a 3-way pot. with the antes in there, this is a very very slightly -chipEV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

But both the initial raise and the call were +EV.

/edit well the raise probably was.

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant that the end situation was slightly -chipEV ex post, i.e., once we see what the cards are. very debatable whether the intial raise was +EV.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

as betgo pointed out, he's 30% in a 3-way pot. with the antes in there, this is a very very slightly -chipEV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

But both the initial raise and the call were +EV.

/edit well the raise probably was.

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant that the end situation was slightly -chipEV ex post, i.e., once we see what the cards are. very debatable whether the intial raise was +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the bubble, I am raising into 3 short stacks any time. If either really short stack plays, it is generally slightly EV+. If the BB raises, I lose 1200. If the BB flat calls, I generally lose 1200, but maybe I will catch something or bluff him with the big stack and position. If everyone folds, I gain 850. I am going to gain 850 most of the time, since usually no one has KQ or AK or something to play with me.

[Melchiades]

You were 30% against these two particular hands, which must be the absolute best case scenario(ok, both could have KQ). Much of the time you will be up against 66+ and two overcards though. Or 4 overcards instead of 3.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I do get annoyed when I see these whiny "omg I'm running so bad, poor me" posts. Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out. That was the point of posting that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will stop making whining posts about running bad if you will stop posting bad beats and hijacking threads.

[Superfluous Man]

[ QUOTE ]

I will stop making whining posts about running bad if you will stop posting bad beats and hijacking threads.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I rather enjoy how this thread turned out (even if it does expose me as someone who doesn't know the difference between multiplying by 2 and multiplying by 3). It seems that posting that hand has resulted in at least a modicum of poker discussion, rather than the "don't worry, it's just variance" circle jerk these threads generally become.

[The Don]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm plus overall. Have a few final tables. In one, I got a little more than 2nd place money in a 3-way chop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ha you actually chopped in this tourney? I can't imagine that being +EV but I guess there is something to be said for hedging risk.

[bruce]

How can you play in 20 tournaments in one day? Are you able
to stay focused and concentrate? I know I can't. I can't even play in one tournament without the tv on or smoking a cigar.

I have a tough enough playing in one. If I play more than 2 or 3 in a day I go stir crazy and get cabin fever. But then again your probably half my age.

I also find it more intellectually stimulating and challenging to play in larger buyin events. I find I can stay focused better with a larger prize pool.

Bruce

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm plus overall. Have a few final tables. In one, I got a little more than 2nd place money in a 3-way chop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha you actually chopped in this tourney? I can't imagine that being +EV but I guess there is something to be said for hedging risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

The other two players wanted to chop, but I refused. They offered me a pretty good deal, so I accepted.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you play in 20 tournaments in one day? Are you able
to stay focused and concentrate? I know I can't. I can't even play in one tournament without the tv on or smoking a cigar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 7-tabling them.

[Yuv]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you play in 20 tournaments in one day? Are you able
to stay focused and concentrate? I know I can't. I can't even play in one tournament without the tv on or smoking a cigar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 7-tabling them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe try and play less? I can't play more than 3 and keep my A game.

[SL__72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to forget that sometimes they get their chips in as an underdog and suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

as betgo pointed out, he's 30% in a 3-way pot. with the antes in there, this is a very very slightly -chipEV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

But both the initial raise and the call were +EV.

/edit well the raise probably was.

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant that the end situation was slightly -chipEV ex post, i.e., once we see what the cards are. very debatable whether the intial raise was +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I kind of worded that poorly, I wasn't disagreeing with you.

What I meant was that given his read, his steal attempt may have been +EV and his call was definately +EV.

So what I meant was while the end situation was (only) slightly -EV, both his decisions were probably good ones given his read.