KK laydown versus DoYouSeeWhy?

[jzieg2313]

Seriously, after the call from the button what else would he do this with?


#Game No : 3009602222
***** Hand History for Game 3009607333 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:17273814 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Wednesday, November 09, 18:07:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 68103 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: masterconnor ( $1205 )
Seat 2: DoYouSeeWhy ( $1800 )
Seat 5: Informat ( $3255 )
Seat 6: arniexteach ( $2055 )
Seat 7: Hero ( $1685 )
Trny:17272222 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Kc Kd ]
arniexteach folds.
Hero raises [275].
masterconnor calls [275].
DoYouSeeWhy raises [450].

Any opinions from the 109 players?

[valenzuela]

I hate this fold.
Btw he could also do that with QQ and AK FWIW.

This is very very easy ALL IN hand.

[jzieg2313]

You really think he would raise the minimum versus the the raiser and the caller with QQ? I would think he would want to knock at least one of us out.

JZ

[codewarrior]

Frankly, I don't see why. Not for one minute. I.E. I might have hesitated a few second before my spleen beat my chips into the pot.

[z32fanatic]

I play the 109s and frankly I don't think he would do that with any hand. Looks like a misclick to me. I would push.

[Messy_Jesse]

I think that its pretty obvious that he had aces- he is probably pushing/calling with QQ, not simply reraising a small amount- he wants you committed, and just wants the two of you to increase the pot size- i think its a difficult laydown, and one i would rarely do, but against an experienced player, you are better off just letting it go-

[pineapple888]

LOL this is the classic donk move with Aces.

A good player would insta-push with Aces here.

A great player might represent them by making the donk move... whether you believe him or not is up to you.

[Roman]

this is a missclick quite often from my experiance, no good player would play AA this way.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a missclick quite often from my experiance, no good player would play AA this way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not? This isn't a bad play with aces. Unless you think it's too transparent.

[Irieguy]

Ok, he has aces. Folding is still horrible.

Imagine how bad the fold is if there's a chance he doesn't have aces.

Irieguy

[johnnybeef]

Dont ever fold KK preflop again in a short stack structure such as a party sng.

[skipperbob]

What a piece-of-crap play

[JJKillian]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL this is the classic donk move with Aces.

A good player would insta-push with Aces here.

A great player might represent them by making the donk move... whether you believe him or not is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen posts before on very similiar k/k hands. Then seen posts where someone laid down aces to 3 or 4 ai's in front of them.

Both posters get railed for their actions.

Not being sarcastic here, just trying to figure this out. If you have two ai's in front of you, you call with aces without hesitation. But on the flip side, as in this hand, replies are saying the aces would try to get heads and would push to get isolation in to a heads up situation. (aces would have pushed here not single raised). Just don't understand why a 3 way pfai is okay in one situation, but people would avoid that in others.

Just interested to see the answers to this is all.

Laterz

JJ

[tigerite]

I'd push any day over the top. DYSW might be solid, but he's still fallable. If he has AA, oh well. I've paid him off. C'est la vie.

[microbet]

If DYSW doesn't have AA here it is just because he thinks you will put him on AA and fold. In that case he could have 72o.

[wuwei]

Your unwillingness to consider the fact that he might have misclicked is a serious leak.

[TonyBlair]

Irieguy summed it up best.

[The Don]

Good players will never do this with aces versus decent competition, it is way too transparent. Very easy push...

[benza13]

[ QUOTE ]
Good players will never do this with aces versus decent competition, it is way too transparent. Very easy push...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely why good players will do it sometimes as well, because they "never" would. That said, you should be pushing this because as others have said, he could do this with a lot of hands that aren't Aces, either representing them, misclicking or something like AK or QQ that could be best here.

[HoldingFolding]

I'm going to have to try this with 7-2o sometime and see what happens.

OT Tony Blair you need an avatar /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
If DYSW doesn't have AA here it is just because he thinks you will put him on AA and fold. In that case he could have 72o.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? No.

[jzieg2313]

I didn't fold, pushed and felt terrible about. He had aces and I'm gone. Big deal happens every so often but that was not the reason I made the post. I was just wondering if his play was so easy to read. I still think him making this play with 7/2o is unreasonable because of the buttons call but I'm not an expert.

Thanks,

JZ

[gildwulf]

Folding is horrible. Do you see why?

[adanthar]

I really, really hate pushing there whether or not I go broke on an ace-less flop (which is probably far more often than not.)

If you're putting him on aces, a misclick, or QQ, his play postflop is exactly the same so why push now?

[Annulus]

[ QUOTE ]
I play the 109s and frankly I don't think he would do that with any hand. Looks like a misclick to me. I would push.

[/ QUOTE ]

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
I really, really hate pushing there whether or not I go broke on an ace-less flop (which is probably far more often than not.)

If you're putting him on aces, a misclick, or QQ, his play postflop is exactly the same so why push now?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call, is your postflop going to be any different? I imagine it might be, but I'd like to hear of examples when it would vary. [maybe just an example of a flop and action that you're folding after the flop but calling pre] For example, do you think there's a chance he's min raising with AK in which case you'll drop the hand when an ace flops? or if a queen flops are you going to worry that he has a set and fold your kings?

I think one benefit to pushing preflop has little to do with doyouseewhy...seat 1 is still in the hand, and if you push you have a good shot at getting heads up. If the three most likely options are AA, misclick, or QQ, then headsup seems to be worth trying to get.

I like a call much more if there wasn't a third guy in the hand, but there is.

>>>ZIPPPY

[adanthar]

Two very interesting things happen when DYSW flops top set or some other near nut hand: he's probably not pushing, and the guy behind me is often betting (anything) if I choose to check.

Conversely, when DYSW flops nothing important, the action will usually go push/call. If that happens, and the third guy manages to have us both beat after calling off 40% of his stack PF, good for him. But in general, when this is a misclick, I'm gonna get the third guy's chips more than the other way around, because it's Party and JT on a J high flop is the nuts.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Two very interesting things happen when DYSW flops top set or some other near nut hand: he's probably not pushing, and the guy behind me is often betting (anything) if I choose to check.

[/ QUOTE ]
So do you think DYSW would check with an overpair in a 3 way pot? I've not played against him, so I don't mean to imply that he would, but I ask because most people would push on a flop with "just" an overpair. if that's the case, then the only time you're folding is when DYSW hits his set. I also don't mean to imply this is a bad thing...QQ vs. your KK is great when he pushes, it's just that it's no different than if you push preflop and he calls. Also, if you do just call and a K or A flops, is DYSW able to get away from QQ? If so, you could be losing out on chips by not pushing preflop.

[ QUOTE ]

Conversely, when DYSW flops nothing important, the action will usually go push/call. If that happens, and the third guy manages to have us both beat after calling off 40% of his stack PF, good for him. But in general, when this is a misclick, I'm gonna get the third guy's chips more than the other way around, because it's Party and JT on a J high flop is the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true. But, even though you might get the third guy's chips more than the other way around, are you going to get the third guys chips andDYSW's chips more than not?

However, it also might be that third guy is already attached to his hand. If so, pushing preflop might not isolate DYSW. if not, then pushing does no good.

[John Hurst]

Clearly I wouldn't minraise with only one opponent in the hand. With Hero and masterconnor both in the hand I'm presented with more options. Minraising reopens the action and often one of the opponents will push a medium pocket pair or AK. I'm not saying it's a great play but it allows both of the opponents to make a mistake.

[John Hurst]

If I reraise preflop and it's checked to me postflop I'm betting 100% of the time. I can't think of many flops where I would fold AA unless the action was bet and call before me.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, he has aces. Folding is still horrible.

Imagine how bad the fold is if there's a chance he doesn't have aces.


[/ QUOTE ]
Folding is bad if he has aces, you know he has aces, and he doesn't know that you know he has aces. He'll probably pay off a set.

Even if he might not have aces, you might be worse off than the above scenario if he might not have aces, you are nevertheless convinced that he has aces, and he knows you are convinced he has aces. He can make a very profitable bluff on the flop, and will not pay off a set.

That he might not have AA reduces your implied odds.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, he has aces. Folding is still horrible.

Imagine how bad the fold is if there's a chance he doesn't have aces.


[/ QUOTE ]
Folding is bad if he has aces, you know he has aces, and he doesn't know that you know he has aces. He'll probably pay off a set.

Even if he might not have aces, you might be worse off than the above scenario if he might not have aces, you are nevertheless convinced that he has aces, and he knows you are convinced he has aces. He can make a very profitable bluff on the flop, and will not pay off a set.

That he might not have AA reduces your implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF!!!!!!?!


<font color="white"> /images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font>

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That he might not have AA reduces your implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF!!!!!!?!
/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Ireiguy pointed out that you can play KK for set value if you know the minreraise means AA. Fine.

He suggested that it is more clear to call the minreraise if the minreraise might not be AA. As I pointed out, this is not necessarily correct. Calling the reraise might be less profitable (whether it is correct or not) against someone who does not have AA 100% of the time. In similar situations, KK might be profitable against someone who would always have AA, but unprofitable against someone who would have AA 80% of the time, and QJs 20% of the time. As I stated, this is because your implied odds are reduced. You still have to fold to a substantial flop bet unimproved, but you now expect to get significantly less when you flop a set. This should be clear to anyone who understands NL cash games with deep stacks.

What, if anything, did you mean to add to the discussion?