Foxwoods Floor Decision: Thumbs up or thumbs down?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

A friend asked me to post this. Playing NL, she moved all in on the turn. She got one caller. There were two people behind, one of which folded. The next guy was apparently clearly going to fold, but the dealer dealt the turn right before he could. In other words, his hand was going towards the muck as the turn was exposed, but he didn't actually muck until afterwards.
The floor ruled that the turn be dealt back into the deck after the river is dealt as the turn. The deck was then shuffled and a new river was dealt.
So, given that the only guy left to act was in the process of folding when the turn got exposed, should the turn have been allowed to stand?

[magicmntn]

Regardless of whether or not the guy insisted he was going to fold, the turn was still dealt while waiting for action. That is a weird way they deal with that though, dealing the river, then shuffling, and then redealing the turn. At Commerce they would shuffle immediately, then deal the turn and river. Their way eliminates the chance the exposed card could show up on the river.

[jackblack73]

Sounds like the right decision to me. You say the guy was in the process of folding, but obviously the dealer didn't see that, otherwise he wouldn't have dealt the turn in the first place. So if he deals a card before action is completed, the card goes back in the deck.

[jackblack73]

[ QUOTE ]
Their way eliminates the chance the exposed card could show up on the river.

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Their way is the only way I've ever seen it done. And it doesn't eliminate the chance of the exposed card coming up on the river, it ensures that it could come up. Also, the card that would have come as the river now comes as the turn. So the board is closer to what it would have been had a mistake not occurred.

[magicmntn]

interesting, Commerce shuffles it right away

That's very odd, that they do it right away.

The purpose of the rule is to keep the hand unaffected as much as possible.

You kill the exposed turn card, then burn and turn the "river," because even with the mistake, that would have been the river the whole time. Then you reshuffle and turn another card without burning. That way, the second burn card stays, and the only card in the deck that is different from its original intention is that final card, and even then it has a chance of coming up the same as it did when it was the original 'turn.'

[Spook]

It was right to reshuffle this because no matter if the last persop were to fold or not- the floor needs to act decisively and consistently. They can not let some local nit say 'well let it stand this time, but when it is an unfavorable card, we will reshuffle.'

funny story regarding a similar scenario....
buddy of mine is playing 20/40 at winstar in oklahoma. he has JJ up against QQ and AA, cap before the flop.
flop comes JQrag, cap again after the flop
turn is a blank...cap again
river is the 4th J, but now the dealer notices that one of the people in the hand failed to complete one of the last bets by something like $10. they call the floor and decide the J is to be placed back into the deck, and the cards are reshuffled before dealing the river. of course the guy is furious at this, but what they say goes. anyway, they redeal the river, and it is the J again.
i never understood exactly why they do it that way, but i support following the rules strictly. it would be way too risky to allow a floorperson to pick and choose when to let it go.

mflo

[mrkilla]

this is the correct ruling. His hand is "almost" it the muck, "sorta" in the muck" then it needs to be reshuffled. Its more for you then him. Apprently this turn card helped your friend...

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
funny story regarding a similar scenario....
buddy of mine is playing 20/40 at winstar in oklahoma. he has JJ up against QQ and AA, cap before the flop.
flop comes JQrag, cap again after the flop
turn is a blank...cap again
river is the 4th J, but now the dealer notices that one of the people in the hand failed to complete one of the last bets by something like $10. they call the floor and decide the J is to be placed back into the deck, and the cards are reshuffled before dealing the river. of course the guy is furious at this, but what they say goes. anyway, they redeal the river, and it is the J again.
i never understood exactly why they do it that way, but i support following the rules strictly. it would be way too risky to allow a floorperson to pick and choose when to let it go.

mflo

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a terrible ruling and your friend got so lucky...

If it is limit there is no question on the amount that should have been bet. It should just be completed and continue.

Dealer and short player needs some ACjr action...

-Gryph