Turn Raise

[Danenania]

MP1 is very loose passive. BB looks like a standard unimaginitive tag.

Party Poker (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[Trix]

Looks fine against alot of unimaginitive tags.
I´d check-call the river if BB folds. If he calls, then you are in a tough spot.

[stoxtrader]

one thing to think about in these situations is to call the flop and then think about a c/r on the turn. You get more information with the card that comes, AND the action with 2 others in the pot.

kind of a part ed miller wait for bigger equity later, combined with whatevr...

[twowords]

Wow thats real fancy for me, but it makes sense. Even if you lose to the loose passive guy more than half the time its still EV++ since this should fold the TAG very often here. Poor TAG.

[krimson]

It looks so spewey but looking at it piece by piece seems to make sense. We can put MP1 on a flush or straight draw, or underpair or something of that sort. BB looks to have 99,JJ-KK. We're likely behind the BB, but the ace is perfect to represent AT. I'd need to be at the table to actually have a feel for whether he would fold or not with QQ/KK.

[JimmyJazz1]

Stox, with such a vulnerable hand on a flop like that it doesnt make sense to wait until the turn to throw in a raise. The flop has 2 hearts and many gut shot possibilities. Also any A or K could ruin your hand, so i'd say raise sooner rather than later to charge the fish bets. The Tag will fold a worse hand no question on the turn to a C/R and call you down with a better or 3 bet you with a monster.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
one thing to think about in these situations is to call the flop and then think about a c/r on the turn. You get more information with the card that comes, AND the action with 2 others in the pot.

kind of a part ed miller wait for bigger equity later, combined with whatevr...

[/ QUOTE ]


This is an interesting idea but don't I risk him checking overcards on the turn too often when I try to do this? It seems like risking a free card could be a pretty harmful prospect.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks fine against alot of unimaginitive tags.
I´d check-call the river if BB folds. If he calls, then you are in a tough spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I could just check/fold the river if BB calls. It will nearly always means he has KK-JJ and sniffed me out or Axs in hearts. KQs/QJs in hearts also fit, and I guess it's also slightly possible for him to have QTs/JTs/T9s) but he certainly wouldn't bet any of these worse/splitting hands on the riv after I check again.

If BB folds I'm not sure I understand the case for a check/call. MP is loose passive and can still have a lot of weaker pairs even after the turn raise. I think I'll be better off value betting than looking to pick off an unlikely bluff.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Stox, with such a vulnerable hand...

[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't seem consistent with this:

[ QUOTE ]
i'd say raise sooner rather than later to charge the fish bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's not c/r'ing for protection, as the first quote seems to advocate. Its for value.

If you had position on the guy and were planning on taking your T to showdown I'd love this. As is, however, he'd better like finding reasons to fold. Also, unless the guy's out of line, you can get away from your hand on the turn.

[Jeff W]

This is a great squeeze play.

When I first looked at it, I thought it was spewing, but you are committed to call given the pot size and the extra BB has sufficient folding+drawing equity.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not c/r'ing for protection, as the first quote seems to advocate. Its for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, check raising the flop can be for value and fold better hands or overcards/5 outers at the same time. It can have a dual purpose.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
but you are committed to call given the pot size and the extra BB has sufficient folding+drawing equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I understand what you mean behind odds to call. I also understand the theory behind this hand, however, how do you KNOW it has enough folding equity?

[oreogod]

Looks fine against someone who is unimaginative but any good/decent player would call down here imo.

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks fine against someone who is unimaginative but any good/decent player would call down here imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
BB looks like a standard unimaginitive tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

What stats or plays did you see to classify him as "unimaginative"?

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks fine against someone who is unimaginative but any good/decent player would call down here imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd call the turn with KK-JJ in BB's position?

[oreogod]

A good majority of the time yes, you limped pf and CRed twice on a draw heavy board...shady enough that Im calling down.

[TStoneMBD]

depends, but i would definitely sometimes fold it, certainly often enough to show immediate profit with a 1BB investment. i also fold more than most people here it seems. still though your play looks a little suspect.

[JDalla]

I can't think of a single player who would fold JJ-KK against me here. So I wouldn't ever make this play. (maybe I just play a lot of fish, or I have a loose table image, who knows...)
plus, half the time the random cold calling player will have A3 or something rediculous like that.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of a single player who would fold JJ-KK against me here. So I wouldn't ever make this play. (maybe I just play a lot of fish, or I have a loose table image, who knows...)


[/ QUOTE ]

same here,and villian must be thinking "what the hell does this guy have" as the hero didnt raise pf,

so i dont like this play

[Victor]

nice. a protected pot bluff. gonores posted about this awhile ago. you guys play good.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
nice. a protected pot bluff. gonores posted about this awhile ago. you guys play good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this can be a great move to use occasionally, but I think a line more in tune to what Stox suggested would be much better..calling flop and pulling this on the turn, its much stronger than pulling two CRs on top of each other. The CRs are only going to add doubt and get a call down. But who knows they could fold, after all there are more bad players than good.

[Danenania]

Frankly I think you're nuts about a good player calling this with JJ-KK. I think a bad player will call with them because he's bad, a good player will fold them, and a very good player MIGHT figure out what's going on and call with them. But I don't have to worry about the third one happening very often. I think someone who would find this an easy calldown with those hands is probably spewing money on calldowns.

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
one thing to think about in these situations is to call the flop and then think about a c/r on the turn. You get more information with the card that comes, AND the action with 2 others in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
In this situation, the key is the information he gained on the flop. BB's flop 3-bet tilts his range of hands away from the ace, which is what makes the turn play good. If Dane had check-called the flop, BB's possible hands with aces would still be very much a part of his range.

[Danenania]

Well the BB paused for awhile then mucked (yes!) and MP called. River is the Td. I bet and MP raises (no!). I call and he has 33.

Thanks for your responses all!