QQ in Big Blind

Blinds 75-150. 4 full tables left.
You have QQ in the BB.
Early position player limps in.
The CO (who is a tight solid player) makes it 650.
Your stack is 5200, the CO just covers you.
Button and SB fold.
What do you do ?
(the limper was a weak player who had limped a lot but always folded to a raise, so you're not worried about him; the CO would be aware of this also).


PS - starting chips was 6000.

[Skjonne]

Average stack? Pay-out structure?

(just buying some time before I shove 'em to the middle)

[Matador225]

Push. Especially since you know the CO is aware of EP's looseness and he could be trying to isolate with a wide range of hands which your QQ dominates.

It's just about 1 hour into the tournie.
Only 5 places get paid.
Average stack is about 6400.

What's the tournament structure and payout? It helps to know this info before deciding what heros next move should be.

I think my default play here is to push. I'm not looking to get PC'd with my QQ preflop only to get scared off if an overcard falls, which is what a reraise essentially does. With your read on the limper and the CO's healthy stack size I think you'll take this down uncontested in most cases and if you get a caller that wants to race you're probably going in as a 3:2 to 4:1 favorite.

QQ is only dominated by KK and AA. You're favorite over AK and worse hands. The raise looks too big for me to be AA or KK and more a hand like AJ-AK, AJs+, KQs+ and medium pairs up to JJ.

Since the EP limper folds most of the time to raises he could also be raising any 2 just to pick up an easy pot since only 3 ppl are left to act behind him + EP.

I think you're WA here and should be pushing, EP is most likely going to fold and I think you're ahead of CO's range here.

[Skjonne]

[ QUOTE ]
It's just about 1 hour into the tournie.
Only 5 places get paid.
Average stack is about 6400.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so this is a live tourney and not that many people out yet. Well it doesn't matter much. Shove 'em I say. It wouldn't be the first (or last) time I lose to kings or aces.

At least since this is live, I can go to the bar.....

[Skjonne]

[ QUOTE ]
.....The raise looks too big for me to be AA or KK.....

[/ QUOTE ]

4,33 BB with one limper is too big a raise? Please elaborate

[Matador225]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.....The raise looks too big for me to be AA or KK.....

[/ QUOTE ]

4,33 BB with one limper is too big a raise? Please elaborate

[/ QUOTE ]

Its only too big if CO is a donkey that likes to minraise or raise really small amounts with monsters.

[ QUOTE ]
The raise looks too big for me to be AA or KK

[/ QUOTE ]
The raise is a perfectly standard pot-sized raise. And it reveals absolutely nothing about this player's holding. He has something as he doesn't steal with trash hands.

People seem to be advocating a push !
Why would you overbet the pot and push in 5200 to win 1000 ?
This hand was discussed at length later, and the only options considered were to either call or raise a pot-sized amount.

everyone is saying shove, which I tend to lean toward also, but your own read on the CO suggests he is a tight solid player. range of hands then would be, AA-JJ, AK, AQ. I think, due to the size of the raise as pointed out by Frankster (not necessarily too HUGE of a raise,but big enough where AA or KK would possibly scare action away), i would put him on AK and push.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The raise looks too big for me to be AA or KK

[/ QUOTE ]
The raise is a perfectly standard pot-sized raise. And it reveals absolutely nothing about this player's holding. He has something as he doesn't steal with trash hands.

People seem to be advocating a push !
Why would you overbet the pot and push in 5200 to win 1000 ?
This hand was discussed at length later, and the only options considered were to either call or raise a pot-sized amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because reraising pot commits you where your only remaining bet after the flop is all-in. You're most likely ahead here. When you're in that position and likely to be a favorite you're best to just push it in and put villain to the tough choice. QQ isn't a hand I like to play too slowly before the flop since flopped overcards can make you put the breaks on, incorrectly in many cases and you're allowing AK to escape with chips on a flop that misses him.

[ QUOTE ]
Because reraising pot commits you

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think reraising pot-commits you.
Suppose you make it 2000. You then have 3350 left which is still about half the average stack. If your opponent chooses to reraise all-in (which would be a courageous raise without AA, KK or AK), then you have a decision to make. But you can still get away from the hand if you wish.
Whether you raise to 2000 or push, your opponent will probably fold all hands less than QQ. So you win the same amount of chips either way.

If you push, then you are just hoping that your opponent does not have AA or KK. You have left yourself no escape route.

You mention that your only remaining bet after the flop is all-in. That is certainly the case IF your 2000 bet is called, AND you choose to bet. But maybe your opponent will fold to your raise pre-flop, or maybe he will reraise all-in. Needless to say, I think a push in this position is a poor play.

I should have mentioned that this was a live tournament, so the play is not as wild as it would be playing on the net.

By the way, the big discussion afterwards was about the BB’s pre-flop play. He just called the CO’s raise. Some people said it was ok to do that. I said he should have raised 2000 or so.

[schwza]

i don't think you want to let the CO off that easy. i'd make it 1700.

At last, something other than a push recommended.
This hand was played by a friend of mine who is quite a good player.
He choose to call.
What do you think of that ?

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think reraising pot-commits you.
Suppose you make it 2000. You then have 3350 left which is still about half the average stack. If your opponent chooses to reraise all-in (which would be a courageous raise without AA, KK or AK), then you have a decision to make. But you can still get away from the hand if you wish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to give villain the opportunity to put you to a tough decision like this? You have a premium hand that's only dominated by 2 other hands and a favorite against every other holding. If he does push preflop you're now being given great odds to call and the only hands you could justify a fold against are exactly AA and KK. Unless you are fairly certain he has one of those hands I think you're making the wrong move by just re-raising here.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether you raise to 2000 or push, your opponent will probably fold all hands less than QQ. So you win the same amount of chips either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise to 2000 only makes it 1350 more for him to call into a pot of 2875. With 2:1 odds he has proper odds to call with a lot of holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
If you push, then you are just hoping that your opponent does not have AA or KK. You have left yourself no escape route.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you've left him an escape route where you could have gotten him to commit nearly his whole stack and lose it to you.

[ QUOTE ]
You mention that your only remaining bet after the flop is all-in. That is certainly the case IF your 2000 bet is called, AND you choose to bet. But maybe your opponent will fold to your raise pre-flop, or maybe he will reraise all-in. Needless to say, I think a push in this position is a poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already said he has 2:1 odds to call, so it's not all that likely he's going to fold here for a measly 1350.

[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned that this was a live tournament, so the play is not as wild as it would be playing on the net.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play plenty of live MTTs and there are tons of donkeys and retirees in them. I don't find a huge difference. If anything, people push harder in live games because you don't have as many hands dealt in the same timeframe and smaller live MTT structures usually push action with fast rising blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, the big discussion afterwards was about the BB’s pre-flop play. He just called the CO’s raise. Some people said it was ok to do that. I said he should have raised 2000 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you could alternate between calling and re-raising here. I don't like to play Queens too slowly before the flop but some players would opt for this line and hope for a low ragged flop and let the villain lead out the flop, then apply the pressure.

Since you're in the blinds and you know you'll be first to act after the flop, another option here is a stop-n-go where you just smooth call and expect to jam any flop. This play has a much higher variance to it, but will win you the pot in a lot of cases.

I still like my default play of pushing over all other choices. A good player should definitely vary their play somewhat between all of these options so he isn't too predictable.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
At last, something other than a push recommended.
This hand was played by a friend of mine who is quite a good player.
He choose to call.
What do you think of that ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't hate it, but i prefer a raise. i think that it's going to be hard to get more than one bet out of villain if he does not flop a pair, and you're going to be hating life if an A/K flops.

[JC_Saves]

(blind response)

This is a situation where you should just call with your QQ. I think too many people are too aggressive with this hand and get run over by AA, KK.

What if you go all-in and the limper insta-calls with his AA, or KK or the original raiser for that matter. There is no reason to go crazy with this hand.

Call and hope that the limper folds and you get to see the flop cheap. What would you do on a flop of AK rag? You certainly would throw your hand away to a big bet so why go all in pre-flop to someone that can bust you.

[ZootMurph]

First, let me say I'm usually against seemingly useless allins. In this case, you are pushing 5k chips to win 875. Seems unreasonable to me. I personally prefer to outplay my opponents on the flop, where possible. It is possible and even likely here.

So, in this situation sometimes I call and sometimes I raise. I call sometimes because I am hoping to get more chips from him on a good flop for both of us. What can be better than seeing a J73 flop with him holding AJ? If you push all in, he probably will call only with a hand that beats yours or is a coin toss, with an ocassional call with a smaller pocket pair. Do you really want to fold out hands that you can make more money off of?

In this case, however, I'd make a raise. I'd make it a small raise, to 1500. If he's trying to buy here, he folds and would probably have folded most flops anyway. If he calls, the pot will be big enough for you to push on anything and take down that additional 850 from him. If he calls, you are ahead often enough that it more than pays. The difference is you may not have gotten all his money in with a preflop allin, where as now you gave him odds to call preflop and made the pot big enough to almost force him to call with any decent hand on the flop allin, improving your chances of getting most of his stack.

By the way, if the flop is REALLY unfavorable for you, you still have enough chips left in your stack to get away from the hand. Although, even if the flop is K63r, I'd think you still need to push here. If the flop is AK6, then I'd feel good about letting it go and being able to continue playing in the tournament.

I agree.
However I hate it more than you because an A or K is going to flop over 40% of the time. What are you going to do then, check fold ?
And as you say, the times where you have an overpair, you will be doing well to get any more money from the villain.
I don’t get QQ too often, and when I do, I try and make some money from it.

What do you think of the people who advocate a push pre-flop ( see CybrPunk’s posts) ?

By the way, the flop came JJ7.
Check - check.
Turn 6.
BB bet 1000, CO raised 2000 more.
BB raised all-in. CO called.
River was a K.
CO had AJ.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy reply.
I don’t agree with raising all-in pre-flop, I think overbetting the bet by so much is nearly always a mistake, as you won’t get called unless you are behind.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to give villain the opportunity to put you to a tough decision like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are very much missing my point here.
If the villain has AA or KK and he reraises, then you can get away from the hand. Maybe you won’t but you DO have the choice. And you’re right, it is a difficult decision. But if he has AA or KK, and you push pre-flop, then you have no decision at all. If he has AA or KK it’s better to have a difficult decision than having no decision at all.


[ QUOTE ]
A raise to 2000 only makes it 1350 more for him to call into a pot of 2875. With 2:1 odds he has proper odds to call with a lot of holdings

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. The odds are 2:1. But look at the sequence of plays. The CO (who is a good player, and the BB knows this) has raised in position, the BB has reraised. If you were sitting in the CO seat, you would think that you were up against a very strong hand here. You would also expect the BB to more than likely bet the flop. So are you willing to call another 30% on your stack in the knowledge that he will probably bet all-in on the flop.
The pot odds is not the only issue here.
The CO actually had AJ which was in his range of raising hands.
What would you do with that hand if the BB raised to 2000 ?
You said that the raise was a measly 1350 ?
It’s 30% of your remaining stack.

By the way, the flop came JJ7.
Check - check.
Turn 6.
BB bet 1000, CO raised 2000 more.
BB raised all-in. CO called.
River was a K.

the reason for an allin is to put the tough decision on the other player. I would much rather have no decision (an allin) than a tough decision, we can only make each decision given the information at hand and every bit of poker is about presenting misleading information or misrepresenting your holdings, put the tough decision on your opponent and realize you are ahead more times than not. You are more likely to get him off of his hand if he has middle pair, Ax or even a stone cold bluff. I agree that only premium hands call you such as AA,KK,AK,QQ,JJ and maybe if your lucky worse hands than that. We want AK to call. JJ, of course. Only hands we are WB is AA, KK. Any flop is threatening (8d,7d,4h) when your opponent then pushes allin after the flop. What are you going to do then. Did he hit a set, a straight, is he on a flush draw? More times than not we are ahead with this hand. Push and take whats in the pot now. When he folds, you now have sent a message to the rest of the table. Don't mess with me fellas. When he calls and you whoop his butt, your sending another message that your not scared to gamble it up with significant holdings. when he calls and you get your butt whipped (again fewer times than you think), then you get to go home and watch Letterman and don't really care what they think your table image is, because your home.

Your example is the exact reason why I prefer to push preflop, especially when the alternative is the line that your friend chose. By the turn card the CO was priced in to call. There wasn't much left to consider.

I like the ideas that you present and some of them are valid arguments. I think one of the most important points in my post is the very last part where I state it's important to vary your play in this position somewhat. I can't fault a call but, like I said prior, I'm pushing this more often than just smooth calling. I might smooth call in some cases to vary my play or for deception purposes (like if I planned to pull a stop n go).

The cards in CO's hands combined with the flop aren't the point to analyze here. At the time you have a preflop decision we don't know what the flop is and it can come out literally thousands of different ways. When it comes to preflop decisions I'm dancing if I get allin with KK vs. AJ. The flop that came out here is so rare that I'm winning this most of the time as I go to the flop more than a 2:1 favorite. Not only that, but a good tight player should be laying down AJ facing a reraise allin. This almost screams QQ-AA or AK. CO would have made a huge mistake by calling. Luck wouldn't have gone my way in this case if he did call, but my default play and line here would be a winner 70% of the time. Your thinking in this case is too results oriented.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think you want to let the CO off that easy. i'd make it 1700.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he reraises you all-in? Do you fold?

[EverettKings]

Pushing is terrible here. Just awful. You get no calls from worse hands. Maybe AK but that hardly makes me giddy.

You're ahead so often here that I just want to get some money in the pot. I make it 1600. If he reraises me all in, well, I stare him down and probably muck it. If he calls then a lot of low-ish flops allow you to stack TT type hands. If it comes A high then you can check and fold if he makes a believable bet. Etc etc.

Everett

[Exitonly]

yep, stack is too big to push, i like making it 1600/2000, and then i'm pushing lots of flops.

And if he pushes PF, i dunno, i might call.

[ZeroPointMachine]

There's 1025 in the pot. Anytime I can boost my stack by 20% I'm not going to risk losing it by getting too cute. Push it.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
We want AK to call

[/ QUOTE ]

no we don't.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We want AK to call

[/ QUOTE ]

no we don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

we definitely like the possibility of being on the 55% of this situation. AK is a dog to any pocket pair. Yes, it is a coin flip, but a slightly favorable coin flip. We can not expect to advance in tournaments if we avoid every coin flip situation. YOU WILL HAVE TO WIN MANY situations similar to this in order to advance. When do you suggest risking with coin flip situations? Only when you are short stack? Not good poker. I am thrilled if he turns over AK and if he hits the flop, then I tell him nice hand, nice call and good luck.

I agree with that. QQ is not a very good hand once all 5 cards have played out. After the flop with any random 3 cards out, what is your play then. A raise of 2000 pretty much means we intend on pushing post flop.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We want AK to call

[/ QUOTE ]

no we don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

we definitely like the possibility of being on the 55% of this situation. AK is a dog to any pocket pair. Yes, it is a coin flip, but a slightly favorable coin flip. We can not expect to advance in tournaments if we avoid every coin flip situation. YOU WILL HAVE TO WIN MANY situations similar to this in order to advance. When do you suggest risking with coin flip situations? Only when you are short stack? Not good poker. I am thrilled if he turns over AK and if he hits the flop, then I tell him nice hand, nice call and good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

assume villain has AK, and we push. do we want him to call?

he calls: there is 150 + 5200*2 + 75 in the pot, and we have a ~55% chance to win. we have a chipEV at the end of the hand of 5844.

he folds: we have our 5200, villain's 650, limper's 150, SB's 75. we have chipEV 6075.

you're telling me you'd like to give up chips in order to gamble. very dubious.

your missing the point. our ultimate goal is to take the pot down right then and there. IF he calls and turnks over AK, I am thrilled, you are comparing fold to call. We can not know what his cards are. I am comparing a call irregardless of what his holdings are, which in this hypothetical are AK - 45% to QQ - 55%.

[schwza]

you said:

[ QUOTE ]
We want AK to call

[/ QUOTE ]

if in fact he has AK, we would prefer him to fold and not call. your quote means that if he has AK, we would prefer him to call and not fold.

there's another related question which i think you may be asking: if he does call, and it turns out his cards are AK, does knowing they're AK make us happy or sad? i'd say we're both a little relieved and a little disappointed. but that's not the question your quote was addressing.

if i know he has AK, I WANT him to call. I am willing to go to a coin flip to further my chances in the tourney. If i had AK and knew he had QQ, I would not want him to call being on the 45 side of a coin flip. this is just my opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of this site or the family members of this site.

honestly schwza, I see your point completely, and you do have a good point if cards are unknown, but using the hypothetical that we know his cards are AK, I like my 55%. So yes, I do want AK to call.

[ QUOTE ]
Your example is the exact reason why I prefer to push preflop, especially when the alternative is the line that your friend chose.

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO making a pot-sized raise (i.e. to 2000) is best, pushing in the next choice but I don’t like it, calling is the worst option. It’s not a choice of Push v call.


[ QUOTE ]
By the turn card the CO was priced in to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
?? – The CO was ahead after the flop. This is not the point of the discussion anyway. It's the pre-flop play I wanted to analyse.


[ QUOTE ]
I can't fault a call but, like I said prior, I'm pushing this more often than just smooth calling. I might smooth call in some cases to vary my play or for deception purposes (like if I planned to pull a stop n go).”

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I think calling is the worst option. 40% of the time an A or K will flop. What do you do then ?
And the time you have an overpair on the flop you will be doing well go get any more chips from villain.


[ QUOTE ]
The cards in CO's hands combined with the flop aren't the point to analyze here

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you saying this ?
That was never my stance – I discussed the opponent’s possible range of hands.
I have already analysed the AA or KK scenario. AQ, AJ, JJ, TT, 99 all fall into the same category if the CO faces a reraise pre-flop. I discussed AJ because that is what he actually had, but I would have said the same thing about AQ,99, etc. I don’t know what the CO would have done if he had AK – he may have pushed, called or folded – I don’t know.
I had not intended to post any more after my previous post. So I just told you the way the hand developed in case you were curious.


[ QUOTE ]
Your thinking in this case is too results oriented

[/ QUOTE ]
A silly comment, and completely untrue.

[beenben]

Two thoughts:

Call; if no A or K on flop, bet about 800; if A or K on flop, check-fold.

OR

on the other hand, you have position now so raise to 1400. but I prefer the first choice b/c he's not likely to be stealing this early.

[kuro]

This is a very standard spot to reraise. You reraise to get it heads up, to take the lead in the hand because you're out of position, and for value because you are probably way ahead of what villain is opening with from late position.

Your stack is just too big to push here and to get a call from a hand that is very far behind you. You wan't to give villains in the hand a chance to push into you because they think you are restealing and that they have some folding equity. You of course will call if you get pushed into and you want to give villains a chance to call and see a low flop and to get it all in with 99-jj because they think there is a very likely chance that you have AK.

Don't play QQ scared.

[JC_Saves]

Overplaying QQ is a very big hole in a lot of people's games, and you might as well add AK to that mix.

When you have a lot of action in front of you from solid players reraising in this spot is a very poor play I think. You just want to call and hope to hit the flop or have it come rags. A lot of times I would plan to check raise on a flop of rags, and decide what to do based on the action.

If an A or K hits on the flop well then you just check it and hope to see the Turn for free or very cheaply. Playing too aggressively on flops with over cards, ie A or K is a quick way to lose your stack. With two other people seeing the flop you have to be a little cautious here. If you call and then have the person behind you reraise what does that tell you? You are beat is what it tells me, especially if the LP raiser calls or reraises, then you just muck it.

Tournaments are about avoiding huge confrontations for all your chips, unless you have the nuts obviously. If you have AA then obviously you shoot the moon here, perhaps even KK, but not QQ.

Unless you have a huge stack and have your opponents covered by a great margin, then pushing preflop in this situation is a horrendous move.

People that advocate pushing to try and get heads up or put the other guys to a tough decision are missing the point. How tough are you going to make it for the guy with AA or KK in this spot? Not very.

Don't overplay QQ, just call and leave them wondering what you have. When the Q hits the flop you make a ton of chips on this hand off of you AA or KK opponent, otherwise you can muck it in the face of a lot of action on a flop that misses you with overcards.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
People that advocate pushing to try and get heads up or put the other guys to a tough decision are missing the point. How tough are you going to make it for the guy with AA or KK in this spot? Not very.


[/ QUOTE ]
WTF? How often is the guy gonna HAVE AA or KK? Not very.

Keep pushing it.

[JC_Saves]

Given the read on this guy as being a solid player the odds of him having AA, KK, AK AQ are right up there.

Pushing preflop with your QQ is just a bad play. Why do you give the Late solid player no respect. He raised an UTG limper with more people to act behind him. You have to give him credit for something.

When you call in this situation you give yourself an out when the flop brings an overcard or TWO. You are still alive and kicking after you check/fold on that flop.

The only reason to push this preflop is if 1) LP raiser is an over aggressive player, 2) You have the LP raiser out chipped by alot, 3)You are a terrrible post flop player and don't know how to lay down hands.

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason to push this preflop is if 1) LP raiser is an over aggressive player, 2) You have the LP raiser out chipped by alot, 3)You are a terrrible post flop player and don't know how to lay down hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I don't feel so bad about my line any more...