PDA

View Full Version : 6max standard??

bottomset
11-09-2005, 06:24 AM
first orbit at table no reads

Party Poker Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is Button with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, bottomset calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">bottomset 3-bets
adsman
11-09-2005, 06:29 AM
Overcard, nut-flush draw and a gutshot to a wheel. Gotta pump that. I assume that you won't take a free card though.
11-09-2005, 06:50 AM
I usually raise A5s with 1-2 limpers from the button. Is this wrong? I'm just startin in 6-max so forgive my ignorance.

That being said I agree you should pump the pot on that flop!
adsman
11-09-2005, 07:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise A5s with 1-2 limpers from the button. Is this wrong? I'm just startin in 6-max so forgive my ignorance.

That being said I agree you should pump the pot on that flop!

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people when first starting 6max make the mistake of being too aggressive. With the limpers there's no need to raise here. Limp in and take a flop.
11-09-2005, 07:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people when first starting 6max make the mistake of being too aggressive. With the limpers there's no need to raise here. Limp in and take a flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense to me thanks. Honestly, It felt a little awkward to me. I pulled this from the Wookie's Six Max Baby Steps (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=0&amp;Entry=154249&amp;F_Board=micro&amp;Thr ead=2536762) thread and the starting hand chart therein. Sorry for the hijack!
checkmate36
11-09-2005, 08:02 AM
I like it since you may have the option of a free card should you want one.
McGahee
11-09-2005, 09:04 AM
I think this is straight outta SSHE.
jrz1972
11-09-2005, 09:13 AM
FWIW, I would normally raise this preflop as well. If the limpers are are good and aggressive I'll reconsider, but then again if the limpers were good they wouldn't have limped.

Oh yeah and definitely 3-bet the flop. I am taking a free card if offered.
Stealthy
11-09-2005, 09:18 AM
I play it exactly the same way up to that point. Plaenty of equity to play with. I would take the free card if I needed it on the turn. MP has shown already that he likes the flop and is not going anywhere. You might free up some outs by getting the BB out but if he is calling 2 back to him on the flop then he is likely to be staying as well. Although we still have decent equity with all our outs I would rather wait till we make our hand on the river to continue strong as by then MP will likely start firing again and we can raise him again.
car ramrod
11-09-2005, 10:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I assume that you won't take a free card though.



[/ QUOTE ]

if available and needed, I would take the free card.
11-09-2005, 10:23 AM
I dont take the free card if I would need it. We have almost equity so its well worth it to disguise our hand and get raised by a lower flush or two pair on the river. I would probably take it without the wheel.
DMBFan23
11-09-2005, 10:31 AM
there's a really good chance these limpers suck.

sometimes I raise preflop, sometimes I don't. you're suited which is nice, but you have some high card strength as well so your hand should do well whether you let the blinds in or not. if the blinds are very aggro and will 3-bet you a lot then I'd be more inclined to call.

if I 3-bet the flop and am called in both spots then I would take the free turn card.
McGahee
11-09-2005, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
if I 3-bet the flop and am called in both spots then I would take the free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm normally a big advocate of firing again on the turn, but if you don't take the free card in that spot, I can't imagine when you would.
deception5
11-09-2005, 11:39 AM
This is perfect. If you get the opportunity you have to take a free card here, a turn bet is a waste of money.
Nilbud
11-09-2005, 12:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
first orbit at table no reads

Party Poker Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is Button with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, bottomset calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">bottomset 3-bets </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, looks good to me. You need around 13 outs here for it to be +EV even if the BB folds. I'd say your ace is worth at least one out, so I count 13. Hopefully one of them will cap it and get even more money in.

I'm less sure about what to do on the turn, but it's probably worth disguising your hand by betting rather than taking the free card.
Nilbud
11-09-2005, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
a turn bet is a waste of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Is there no value in disgusing your hand, or are we afraid of a raise?
TheKentock
11-09-2005, 12:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a turn bet is a waste of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Is there no value in disgusing your hand, or are we afraid of a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

At these limits, I think people will see our check on the turn as straight-up weakness, not as a free card play. I get the feeling that the vast majority of ML players haven't even Heard of a free card play, much less noticed someone else pulling it on them. If you check through on the turn, a lot of TP hands or even second pair hands will bet into you, which is perfect if your heart hits.
deception5
11-09-2005, 12:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why? Is there no value in disgusing your hand, or are we afraid of a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the strength shown on the flop we aren't getting anyone to fold with a turn bet. A turn c/r is very possible, especially if the player isn't very good at hand reading (realizing that you might take a free card).

The biggest problem is that if we have 2 opponents on the turn and we bet, we are losing more money than we will make up if we improve on the river by disguising our hand. A decent opponent isn't going to give us a ton of action when the flush comes in and we raise whether we bet the turn or not.

I should elaborate though. If someone folds and it's heads up on the turn a bet is fine.
Nilbud
11-09-2005, 12:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? Is there no value in disgusing your hand, or are we afraid of a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the strength shown on the flop we aren't getting anyone to fold with a turn bet. A turn c/r is very possible, especially if the player isn't very good at hand reading (realizing that you might take a free card).

The biggest problem is that if we have 2 opponents on the turn and we bet, we are losing more money than we will make up if we improve on the river by disguising our hand. A decent opponent isn't going to give us a ton of action when the flush comes in and we raise whether we bet the turn or not.

I should elaborate though. If someone folds and it's heads up on the turn a bet is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do things change if it's HU on the turn? Are we betting hoping to get villan to fold?
Reqtech
11-09-2005, 12:41 PM
While it is normally read dependant, I also typcially raise preflop here especially since I'm new to the table and I want my opponents to fear me. OTOH, if both limpers have low VPIP , I would just limp.

Raising pf would change the flop action, but in this scenario I would also 3 bet and then take the free card given the oppurtunity. Highly doubtful that MP folds.
deception5
11-09-2005, 12:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why do things change if it's HU on the turn? Are we betting hoping to get villan to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

With 2 opponents it's very possible one of our opponents is on a draw and one has a made hand. It's less likely that both are on draws as there are only so many hearts or straight draw cards that could be out there.

If one folds then there's a reasonable chance we're only against another draw. If this is the case we can value bet the turn (because we are very likely currently ahead of most draws and definitely ahead of all flush draws) and check behind on the river. If we get check/raised on the turn heads up we can safely fold the river unimproved.
milesdyson
11-09-2005, 12:51 PM
the difference between raising and limping this preflop is small against opponents who usually won't ever fold a pair postflop.

and i think this hand is standard postflop, and i'm not betting unimproved even if heads up on the turn (against either opponent).
11-09-2005, 12:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the difference between raising and limping this preflop is small against opponents who usually won't ever fold a pair postflop.

and i think this hand is standard postflop, and i'm not betting unimproved even if heads up on the turn (against either opponent).

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you raise if you hit your ace on the river if bet into? Do you call with the 5? I would probably call with both a 5 and an ace.
deception5
11-09-2005, 01:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you raise if you hit your ace on the river if bet into?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.
kapw7
11-09-2005, 04:02 PM
Interesting hand esp with no reads.

I roll a dice:

PreFlop: limp-raise: 4-2
Flop: call-raise: 2-4
Turn: take free card Y/N: 5-1

Who says that poker is not a lucky game.
Emmitt2222
11-09-2005, 04:40 PM
I'm too lazy to look but I am almost positive this is straight from a hand quiz in SSHE, one of the slightly more argued hands. I think this is perfect though, especailly because it is 6max so they could be betting weaker holdings and your ace will hold up more often if it hits.
Fryguy
11-09-2005, 05:39 PM
QFT when I started 6-max I raised all sorts of random [censored]. It takes a few hundred hands to get the feel for it.

With that said, A8s or less is an EASY limp behind. A naked ace doesn't have much value multiway, you are playing the hand for the time you get flush-draws (and occasionally make the A win). You wouldn't raise 87s in this situation, A5s isn't really any better.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise A5s with 1-2 limpers from the button. Is this wrong? I'm just startin in 6-max so forgive my ignorance.

That being said I agree you should pump the pot on that flop!

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people when first starting 6max make the mistake of being too aggressive. With the limpers there's no need to raise here. Limp in and take a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
deception5
11-09-2005, 05:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
With that said, A8s or less is an EASY limp behind. A naked ace doesn't have much value multiway, you are playing the hand for the time you get flush-draws (and occasionally make the A win). You wouldn't raise 87s in this situation, A5s isn't really any better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all a matter of game conditions, image, etc. How tight the blinds are, how willing players are to fold when they miss the flop and whether it's 1 or 2 limpers are nearly as important as the actual cards.