This chick just sat down.

[adsman]

She posts. I have just unclicked the post blinds button as the tables two donators both suddenly got up and left. No reason to stay here now. She has taken the party seat as the hot brunette with the big tits. I love it when they take that seat. I figure I might as well play one more hand before I leave.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.fourthnut.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 (poster) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>,

How did I do?

[tyler_cracker]

Looks good to me (i assume you're pulling a standard clarkmeister and folding to a river raise).

[Aaron_]

I don't like the river bet -- I just check/fold.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the river bet -- I just check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Put yourself in the villians position when I bet out. What would you do if you had KK with no /images/graemlins/club.gif for example?

[Weatherhead03]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the river bet -- I just check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister proved that its +EV to bet when four to flush comes on the board even if you dont have one.

[Shillx]

What is the idea behind the flop play? If you were both all-in at that point it might have thin value (or it might not) but there are some important things to keep in mind here....

1) Though you have roughly 50% equity here, your equity changes VERY little through out the hand.

Board: Qc 9c 3h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.8462 % 50.69% 00.16% { KsQs }
Hand 2: 49.1538 % 48.99% 00.16% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Here is your equity if the turn is the....

2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif - 52.4%
J /images/graemlins/heart.gif - 43.1%
7 /images/graemlins/club.gif - 46.1%
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif - 32.4%

So even when a bad card hits you will have enough to see a showdown. When any other card hits, your equity will be in the 45-55% range. These are the absolute best hands to just play slow and let him either bet the best hand or the worst hand.

2) By check/raising you bloat the pot when you are beat. So while you are going to get an extra SB when you are good, you lose an extra 2 SB when you are beat. It is even worse to make this play if check/raising the flop forces you to look at a river card while drawing thin (see the flush draw thread for more on this). Looking at a river card the way this hand went down is a mistake IMO. You just don't have enough to call the turn bet with the information you have.

3) It also gives you an opportunity to get outplayed (and she will never get outplayed here since nothing better is folding). Sometimes she will fold a hand like TT that you had in bad shape. Sometimes she will 3-bet a hand you beat or have tied and it makes calling the turn closer (and worse for you since she is playing closer to what game theory should suggest). You minimize mistakes by flat calling down since she will probably keep betting when checked to. If we knew that she would bet all 3 streets with all of her holdings, I feel like a world class player should just calldown in this spot (let alone one of us). The fact that hands like AK and such will sometimes go through make a river bet a good idea in most cases.

Brad

[adsman]

Nice response. So basically here I should have taken a WA/WB line? If the fourth /images/graemlins/club.gif didn't fall on the river would you have bet out or just called down?

[Shillx]

I would have check/folded the river, but I would have check/folded the turn first. Betting the river as the hand was played is obviously fine.

The old maxim of "well I'm getting x:1 so I'm calling down" only applies to spots where your hand very well could be good. So when you check/call all 3 streets, you can continue to call when scary cards come because those hands that you beat are still in her range. When you decide to check/raise the flop and get 3-bet, you have to have the mindset that you must improve to win. So it really doesn't matter how big the pot is since your equity is just about zero when you don't get help. If some dude walked by your table and put in enough money to make the final pot 100 BB instead of 10 BB, you would still be throwing $$$$ away by calling on the end.

Brad

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have check/folded the river, but I would have check/folded the turn first.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think you would be getting odds to call the Turn hoping to improve on the river, particularly as you could argue that any /images/graemlins/club.gif could "improve" our hand?

[McGahee]

Yeah, don't C/R the flop.
I think I'd be more inclined to see a SD though based on her post and no limpers in front - her 3-betting standards may be a little light in this spot.

Someone 3-bets i would fold.

*grunch*
I don't check-raise (a preflop 3bettor) on the flop unless I want to get 3bet.

I would have bet\called the flop.

I'm thinking out loud here but I'm tempted to bet\fold the turn scare card.