6 – max in VERY loose and passive micro limit tables (long)

[Iq75]

Lately I have been playing in 6-max tables that have VPIP over 65 %. The tables are usually very passive as well and the PFR% can be as low as 2 % (since I raise something like 15 %, I am sometimes the only one that really raises preflop). On the flop there are usually 2 – 3 players who will call whit anything (one overcard, baby pair …) and they have something like 60 % WTS.

Example:

UTG calls, MP calls, HERO on the button whit KJs raises, both blinds call (on that table it was almost impossible to loose the blinds, they called whit J8o, T7s …), UTG and MP call.

Flop K75r

UTG checks, MP bets, Hero raises, blinds call, UTG folds

Turn 2

MP checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, MP Calls

River 8
MP checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP Calls

MP shows AKs, BB A2o and MP takes the pot.

I am an aggressive 6 – max player and so far the results have been ok in tables whit 40 – 50 % VPIP.

But I cant seem to win whit these calling stations on the very loose tables (although my sample size is so small that in can very easily be variance as well).

What kind of adjustments should one make in tables that have 65 % VPIP, average of 50 % went to showdown and AF of 0.25)?

Here are my thoughts:

On VERY loose and passive tables I should start to play like this:
1) After 1 – 3 limpers, I should not raise whit 99, 88, 77, A9s-A2s, KTs, K9s, KJo, QJs, QTs and JTs. When the blinds are very loose, I would just end up in a family pot (4 – 6 players). This is especially true whit A2s; if I hit my A, I can easily be dominated (due to a lack of PRF) and my possible pair of 2’s is not worth much. And since the pot would already be big, the calling stations would have good odds to draw out on me. Most of the time I will just have A high. So one should limp these (never openlimp though).
2) I should not bet the streets whit nothing or whit marginal hands. In 6 – max I usually bet my second pair of 5’s on the flop, but whit 3 – 4 calling stations they are bound to call. They will most certainly call me whit better hands and If I happen to have the best hand (although marginal) they can easily draw out on me. In passive tables I can get a lot of free cards, so I will start taking them. Obviously I should still valuebet every halfdecent holding like a toppair of Jacks whit a crappy kicker.
3)When a passive player bets, he normally has something. In normal tables when I raise preflop whit ATo in the CO, the bb calls, the flop is 522s and the BB bets I’m normally raising. But when a calling station whit AF of 0,1 bets, I’m probably beat and it’s time to fold (I do make a mental note thought, if he keeps doing that I’ll TAG it up).
4) When these players raise preflop, it's normally time to fold.If a player has PFR of 0 % after 60 hands, the raise means a very good holding, so my ATs is probably not good enough to reraise.


Any thoughts?

[adsman]

Any thoughts?

Well, first of all, you don't spell with, whit. That's for starters. Second of all, if I find myself blessed, and I mean BLESSED by the poker gods with a table like you're discribing, I do three things. I loosen up my calling standards and I raise preflop frequently, because I know that I'm better than these monkeys postflop and I am going to outplay them and take their money. And I value bet these suckers to death on the river, which means of course that you hardly ever bluff.

So, to paraphrase, the players are sucking out on you and don't respect your raises? Did I get that right?

My thoughts are: buy Small Stakes Hold'em. Use that information to play your loose 6-max games. Profit.

100% serious. It sounds like you don't understand the principle behind, say, raising 99 on the button after two limpers. Or that ANYTIME a player with 0% PFR raises PF, it means something.

Oh, and PLEASE tell us where those games are so we can come profit too.

[Iq75]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts?

Well, first of all, you don't spell with, whit. That's for starters. Second of all, if I find myself blessed, and I mean BLESSED by the poker gods with a table like you're discribing, I do three things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sir, English is a foreign language to me. Allthougt learning how to spell english right is a nice skill, I prefer concentrating on learning how to play poker.

I do think that those kind of tables are great. If i did not, I could very easily find thighter tables. I'm just trying to learn the optimal play for those.



[/ QUOTE ]
I loosen up my calling standards and I raise preflop frequently, because I know that I'm better than these monkeys postflop and I am going to outplay them and take their money. And I value bet these suckers to death on the river, which means of course that you hardly ever bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

How loose are you calling? I use the chart from the HUSH.

And are you raising A2s from Button when there are allready 3 limpers and there is more than 50 % chance that the blinds are coming a long. What about 77?

If these players are calling every bet, how are you outplaying them? You just valuebet everything half decent and check your margimal hands, like i allready said.

[Iq75]

"So, to paraphrase, the players are sucking out on you and don't respect your raises? Did I get that right?"

Yes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But if they dont respect my raises, that should alter my style a bit in 6 - max. I should not try to steale whit garbage, cause i will get called.

"My thoughts are: buy Small Stakes Hold'em. Use that information to play your loose 6-max games. Profit."

I allready have it and i have read it several times.

"100% serious. It sounds like you don't understand the principle behind, say, raising 99 on the button after two limpers. Or that ANYTIME a player with 0% PFR raises PF, it means something."

ok, maybe I should raise 99 on the button after two limpers. My pot equity is too big there not to raise.

How about 88 after 3 limpers and over 50 % chance that the blinds will come along.

"Oh, and PLEASE tell us where those games are so we can come profit too."

I think that you allready know, but you can only one table there.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]

How loose are you calling? I use the chart from the HUSH.

[/ QUOTE ]

For example if I get a couple of limpers in front of me and I'm on the button I will call with Q9s.

[ QUOTE ]
And are you raising A2s from Button when there are allready 3 limpers and there is more than 50 % chance that the blinds are coming a long.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope.

[ QUOTE ]
What about 77?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends.

[ QUOTE ]
If these players are calling every bet, how are you outplaying them? You just valuebet everything half decent and check your margimal hands, like i allready said.

[/ QUOTE ]

You outplay them by staying in and making them pay when you have a hand, even marginal, and not paying them off when you miss. So if you have K5s in the sb, there's two limpers, you call, the bb checks, the flop is KT9, you check and it's a bet and a raise to you, you fold.

[Iq75]

"For example if I get a couple of limpers in front of me and I'm on the button I will call with Q9s."

"So if you have K5s in the sb, there's two limpers, you call, the bb checks, the flop is KT9, you check and it's a bet and a raise to you, you fold."

This is the problem that i'm trying to remedy by making this post. My default play in that situation in 6 max is to bet or check/raise the flop and then call down if 3 - bet (after all any top pair of kings is a momster when its 3 - ways and you are dealing whit very aggressive 6 - max players). If its a bet and a raise, i would have defenitely 3 - bet but after that if its capped i'm kind of halfconvinced that i'm behind.

And thats why Q9s is too loose for me. I think that i will just limp the hands in MEbenhoe's chart.

I have thought about the raising. After 2-3 limpers and over 50 % of cahnce that blinds will come along 99 is a marginal raise? what about A9s, KTs, QJs and QTs (all raises in MEbenhoe's chart), they are atleast suited so they play better multiway. A8s - A2s, K9s, KJo and JTs look like limps in those conditions?

[adsman]

If you 3 bet TPNK on a co-ordinated board in a small pot when you're playing against loose-passives then you need to work on your postflop play. Check out page 266 in SSH. Stop worrying about preflop. Work on postflop.

[Iq75]

[ QUOTE ]
If you 3 bet TPNK on a co-ordinated board in a small pot when you're playing against loose-passives then you need to work on your postflop play. Check out page 266 in SSH. Stop worrying about preflop. Work on postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I havent really been using SSH for 6 max games, cause normally the situations are totally different. For exampel against two players in 6 max a second pair of 8's are usually good and i will valuebet it until told otherwise.

I have my SSH at home, but was p.266 the exampel with Axs on a two flush board whit a bet, call and a raise? When i played full ring i allways had trouble with that. After reading and rereading SSH, I finally got rid of that leak, but it seems that it is repeading itself in loose 6 max.

I have been reading a lot of stuff from the HUSH forum and it is great but sometimes it just does not apply to very loose low limit 6 - max.

I have basically run (or tried to run) down opposition with overaggression. So far it has worked all right (allthough sampple size is only like 8k hands) when the table has vpip 40 - 50 % and weak/aggressive players. But in the looser games it just does not work. So no bluffing and more folding against loosepassive calling stations.