30/60 with some CDC sweat

[PokerBob]

Bellagio 30/60 10 handed
CDC sweat me on this hand and we discussed the river a bit. What say you? the lady to my left is an uber-fish. She CC'ed me earler with T2s and peeled the flop with nothing. I have seen her CC with all kinds of junk, but I have not seen her 3-bet pf often (or at all for that matter).

I open in EP with KQs, lady 3-bets next in. Dude right after her CC's 3-bets (I know nothing about him). Blinds disappear and we go flopping 3 ways.

Flop:Q84r
I check, fish bets, dude calls, I call.

Turn: 2 of no-flushy
I check, she bets, dude calls, I call.

River: 3
I.........

C/R flop or C/R turn. What you waiting for?

[CardSharpCook]

What does the Center for Disease Control know about poker anyway?

[Soh]

Well, this is the thing about KQ in early position and the re-raiser is acting after you. You aren't sure where you are!

I know she's a donkey, but does she play straight forward?
Some donkeys only re-raise with premium hands.

River: Check... (?)

Soh

[bobdibble]

So she has AQ, A-big that wiffed, or a PP, probably JJ+

Dude has A-high, paired his Q, 8,4,or 2 kicker, or has some PP less than a Q, but not a set. You look really good agains this overall range of hands and can probably beat him.

So... what do you do against her... You haven't included any post flop reads for her, so it's hard to say. Will she VB thin? Will she check AK/JJ here, but call a bet? If you bet, will she raise with a worse hand?

Btw, I would much prefer a CR on the flop or the turn than getting this far without showing any agression. Assuming she is passive/predictable with her raises but will make bad call downs (T2s peel, for example), then you should have CRd earlier. You will have gotten an extra bet in this way, and if she plays back at you, you will have saved some if you did it on the flop.

[vmacosta]

I like your passive play on flop+turn here. On the river, I think a check/call is still the prudent thing to do.

If fish is getting out of line with some random PP or even AK (which is what many fishes do), there is some chance of you being raised by a worse hand on the river--either as a bluff or cuz fish doesn't understand hand values.

Plus, CCer has done nothing but call on a drawless board so you can hope to pick up his call as well if fish bets again.

Furthermore, sometimes fishes shut down and don't bet on river with AA/KK/AQ cuz they're scared or the pot's big enough or whatever.

Finally, even if fish gives up with some PP, there is still some chance CCer will bet a wrose hand or already had you beat.

[DeeJ]

check/raise the flop, lead the turn. Don't let them draw out on you cheap.

[Moozh]

I think the flop and turn are fine, but that could be debated more...

As for the river, I think if you want a showdown, you need to bet/fold. Heads up, I think this would be the obvious play. With three, I think it's closer. Still, you're in a situation where I feel you can fold fairly easily to a river raise (yes?), yet all the hands you beat coudl potentially be checking behind on the river. The three-person river changes that somewhat, as she has someone to act behind you, but I still like bet/fold.

If you don't want to see a showdown, I think you should have folded earlier, probably the turn. I don't think your outs are clean enough to be calling there looking to improve.

[tomahawk]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the river, I think if you want a showdown, you need to bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[ QUOTE ]
Bellagio 30/60 10 handed
CDC sweat me on this hand and we discussed the river a bit. What say you? the lady to my left is an uber-fish. She CC'ed me earler with T2s and peeled the flop with nothing. I have seen her CC with all kinds of junk, but I have not seen her 3-bet pf often (or at all for that matter).

I open in EP with KQs, lady 3-bets next in. Dude right after her CC's 3-bets (I know nothing about him). Blinds disappear and we go flopping 3 ways.

Flop:Q84r
I check, fish bets, dude calls, I call.

Turn: 2 of no-flushy
I check, she bets, dude calls, I call.

River: 3
I.........

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldve bet into her on the flop, hoping she raises to get the other guy out, and hoping to god she is capable of raising a hand on that flop that I can still beat. Once it gets heads ups, I think its best to go into call down mode. The pot is already a decent size, I think it is very important to try to make this a 2 player contest before you go into passive mode, betting the flop is the best way to accomplish this. As far as the river play, if you know she or the other player will never raise the river with a hand youre ahead of, then betting the river is better than checking and calling, especially when you consider the fact that the fish will still call the river with AK if you bet but they probably wont bet it. If you dont have that strong of a read on your opponents river play then check and call is ok.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the river, I think if you want a showdown, you need to bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm certainly no expert, and I don't claim to be right here. But if you disagree, I'd sure like to know why. Teach me something.

[kidcolin]

I think he's confused because bet/fold doesn't guarantee a showdown. If you want to see a showdown, it's either bet/call or check/call.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he's confused because bet/fold doesn't guarantee a showdown. If you want to see a showdown, it's either bet/call or check/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. When I said 'want a showdown', I really meant 'think your hand has a chance to win at showdown'. If you're raised on the river, I don't think you have much of a chance of winning.