A Post Deleted in the WPT Forum

[Dynasty]

Paul Phillips (TV poker player) is complaining that a thread he started in the WPT forum about the WSOP Tournament of Champions was deleted. I certainly did not delete it intentionally.

Is there any record of the deletion? Is it possible to tell if I somehow delted the thread accidentally?

Link to complaint thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3895551&page=0&vc=1#Post 3895551)

[Mat Sklansky]

I deleted it. He put a nearly unintelligeble thread whining and threatening that his first deleted post would be his last. I deleted it instinctively. Perhaps it was a mistake, but it's too late now.

[Dynasty]

For the record, this is an e-mail exchange between me and Paul.

My e-mail to Paul:

I am unaware of any deleted thread in that forum started by you. Other than me, only a user labeled as an administrator could take action. That's basically just Mat Sklansky.


Paul's response to me:

I guess my post about the TOC was a little too hot for him to handle. It
doesn't matter what happens now, as I always said if any of my posts was
ever deleted from 2+2 I would be done with the site. I went out of my
way to reiterate that point in the very post that started the now
vanished thread, so it's not like he can plead ignorance about it.

Lame. Glad it wasn't you though, thanks for letting me know.

[Mat Sklansky]

If I made a mistake, let Mason know and he'll address it.

While I agree that we should try to make the forum a friendly place for tv poker celebrities, I don't think a guy like paul phillips making threats accomplishes this goal any easier.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I deleted it. He put a nearly unintelligeble thread whining and threatening that his first deleted post would be his last. I deleted it instinctively. Perhaps it was a mistake, but it's too late now.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is confusing to me. Was the original post about the TOC the one that included all the whining and threats? Because I now see another one complaining about how his other post was deleted, etc.

I guess my confusion comes mostly from the fact that the other thread was about the TOC. That doesn't seem to fit in with your description. I didn't see it, though, so my guess is there was something about it that was unreasonable.

[Dynasty]

I didn't read the thread. I remember clicking on it and seeing a long post by Paul to start off. I wasn't in the mood to read what I assumed was Paul's criticism of allowing Hellmuth into the WSOP TOC despite not meeting the qualifications.

So, I can't comment on whether you made a mistake or not. I don't know the content of the thread.

[Mat Sklansky]

In all honesty, I only remember a couple things. He started off by saying the site sucked, that Dynasty sucked because he was bragging about banning people, and that if any of his posts were ever deleted, he would never post again. The immediate responses were flames of some sort, and I deleted the thread. If it wasn't paul phillips, and if it wasn't a possibility that paul phillips is actually important to the forums on some level, I would not even be involved in this discussion.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
If it wasn't paul phillips, and if it wasn't a possibility that paul phillips is actually important to the forums on some level, I would not even be involved in this discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I for one don't consider him much of a loss.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it wasn't paul phillips, and if it wasn't a possibility that paul phillips is actually important to the forums on some level, I would not even be involved in this discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I for one don't consider him much of a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do.

[Mat Sklansky]

The situation has been escalated by Mason's decision to ban him. I had nothing to do with that, but Mason thinks that Paul has consistently misbehaved.

I will say this: reprinting a private message on the boards is a low thing for anyone to do.

At this point, there is nothing left to be done. People are blaming paul's banning by the owner of this website on a lack of proper moderation. It's just not the case.

[Lloyd]

I think if you send an email to somebody in this type of situation, you HAVE to expect it will be made public. It might seem in poor taste, but that's the reality. And in this case I think it was almost a given.

It's obvious that over-moderation has become a huge issue in WPT. And while Paul brought this on himself, it was essentially in response to that. The biggest issues, as I see it, are a lack of communication between mods and people who are on the wrong end of modding, and the fact that too much of this is being done publicly.

[Mat Sklansky]

Dynasty has been moderating in a way to make the foruim a friendlier place for people like phillips. He's the only moderator there, and I agree with his stance. Dynasty will correct me if I am not speaking properly on his behalf here.

Mat

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

To me this is a simple issue. We now have approximately 40 moderators who volunteer to do this job. We appreciate it very much and www.twoplustwo.com (http://www.twoplustwo.com) is a much better place because of it. So in this light, I will not tolerate anyone who personally attacks our moderators. They are of course free to criticize and make suggestions in a professional manner.

One other point. If a regular poster gets on the board and says something negative in an inflammatory way about one of our moderators we might let it stand. That's because no one will take this poster seriously anyway. But when someone who is well know and respected in the poker world does the same thing, we must address it or else we run the risk of encouraging more of the same and damaging Two Plus Two in the long run.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]

It's obvious that over-moderation has become a huge issue in WPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not obvioius. The only thing that has happened recently is that more people have been suspended for insult posts (directed both at other posters and at TV players).

There are appear to be two reasons for this:

1. The number of insult posts went up significantly. I think that ESPN's airing of the WSOP is the reason for this. That show generates a lot of reactions.

2. The increase in the # of insult posts caused toleration of it to go down. So, in additon to the # of posts going up, the % of people getting suspended for it went up as well.

[Lloyd]

I do not disagree with your decisions. What I'm saying is that those decisions (deemed to be over-moderation by many in the WPT forum) have become an issue. You don't have to convince me otherwise. But that doesn't mean it's not a problem that is affecting the forum and 2p2. I do think that handling issues on a 1 on 1 basis, not making posts that "appear" to be bragging about suspending people, and making it more clear about what is not tolerated would go a long way.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's obvious that over-moderation has become a huge issue in WPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not obvioius. The only thing that has happened recently is that more people have been suspended for insult posts (directed both at other posters and at TV players).

There are appear to be two reasons for this:

1. The number of insult posts went up significantly. I think that ESPN's airing of the WSOP is the reason for this. That show generates a lot of reactions.

2. The increase in the # of insult posts caused toleration of it to go down. So, in additon to the # of posts going up, the % of people getting suspended for it went up as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I for one agree with your actions in WPT 100%. People are totally overreacting about any suspensions, etc. The policies are very simple - pure insults and putdowns are not tolerated. If people call someone an [censored] and talk about specific hands, why it was a donkey play, etc, then that's a different story.

In the case of PaulP, I agree with Mason's stance on this. Paul had plenty of chances to avoid posting something inflammatory. Sure, his original post probably shouldn't have been deleted necessarily, but based on his follow up post he's just a guy looking for attention. Anyone who reads his blog knows he loves to post links to things talking about himself, and I'm sure he loves the fact that people are talking about him.

It's not like he was a constant contributor anyway. He did post some good thoughts here and there, mostly in MTT, but otherwise did he really add a lot of value to the forum? I can't say that this "loss" will affect the forum at all.

My 2 cents.

[Mike Haven]

Fyi, from his blog:

Nov. 9th, 2005 @ 10:09 am Finally, the inevitable from 2+2
While I have taken leaves of absence from 2+2 before I always said if they ever deleted one of my posts I'd be gone for good. Not only did they delete a post, they knocked out an entire thread with at least 50-60 posts in it. Mason emailed me this morning:

Paul:

I just spoke to Mat Sklansky who deleted the thread.

Apparently, you made derogartory comments about this site, the moderator, and stated that if any of your posts are ever deleted you would never post here again." I agree that our posters should not be "bad mouthing" the TV players. However, that's no excuse for you to do the same.

Paul, we are considering granting your wish of never allowing you to post here again. You need to appologize, first to us privately, and then to the forum.

It is our policy at Two Plus Two to hold other writers to higher standards, that policy is now extended to well known public figures in poker such as yourself.

I think this is a shame since you are certainly one of the most talented people in all of poker, but having extra talent is no excuse for rude behavior on Two Plus Two.

Best wishes,
Mason

Site: I said the 2+2 interface is brain dead for leaving a "this post has been deleted" placeholder when a post is deleted because it leads to every thread getting hijacked by metadiscussion. (True)
Moderator: I said the moderator pours fuel on the fire by boasting about all the people he's banned. (True)

I do have an apology for you mason! I'm sorry you suck so much. And to the forum, I'm sorry you have to deal with nazi moderators.

Now to post over there one more time so mason can have the satisfaction of banning me for good.

Edit: A 2+2/blog reader was wise enough to save a copy of the offending post and sent it to me.

Subject: 2005 WSOP TOC

Anyone who thinks this is a "freeroll" (and therefore
they didn't do anything wrong) is a sucker.

Anyone who thinks this isn't worthy of comment because
the amount of stolen equity isn't enormous is the
aforereferenced "whore negotiating price."

I haven't followed 2+2 as regularly as I might. When
did every thread in this forum become a
deletion/banning [censored] swinging contest? This site has
the most brain damaged interface I've ever seen;
instead of actually removing a deleted post they leave
up a placeholder that says "post deleted" with the
obvious result that every thread is hijacked by
pointless metadiscussion. And this fellow dynasty
pours fuel on the fire by boasting about all the
people he's banned.

Whoever's idea this was, you might want to reconsider
your implementation. Or is this post going to
disappear too? I have no idea, but my first deleted
post will be my last.

[Surfbullet]

uhh... the "post deleted" thing only stays when the creator of the post deletes his/her own work, right? I've never deleted a thread and had it stay there with a "this thread has been deleted" sign on it...

Also, I was on the fence initially about the paulp thing, but after getting more info I support your position 100% mason.

Surf

[Mike Haven]

I think "post deleted" comes up when a post that has a reply attached to it is deleted.

If you want such a sub-thread deleted entirely, you have to work upwards from the last attached reply.