Playing against flush draws. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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11-09-2005, 01:22 AM

A situation that I seem to run into a lot is when I'm dealt a big pocket pair (JJ-AA). I play it aggressively pre-flop, capping if possible. Often, I see two to a flush fall on the flop. In these loose low limit games, there are very commonly as many as 4 or even 5 opponents still in at this point. Assuming there are no overcards to my pocket pair, I continue to push the betting (is this correct in most cases?). The issue is, these flush draws definitely have odds to keep drawing by this point, so I can't push them out. It seems that 3rd suited card always falls on the river (not always, but it just feels like it). What I'm wondering is at that point, should I just check/call or should I still lead out? It seems like a mistake to assume someone was 'always' on a flush draw, but when I get raised or check raised (depending on position), now I've spent 2 big bets to showdown instead of 1. Anyway, I think I've talked myself into check-calling these situations, but is this right or should I continue to be the aggressor?

cold_cash

11-09-2005, 01:29 AM

We need more details; most specifically, how many opponents do you have and what has the action been?

11-09-2005, 02:00 AM

Generally speaking you want to be pumping the pot when you know you're ahead.
That 3rd flush card can only come up by the river around 1/3 times at most, so you are going to beat flush draws more than your fair share of the time. Of course there are other things to consider too.
The line on the river, as cold_cash said, will depend on reads and previous action etc.

11-09-2005, 02:07 AM

I can't find the crypto hand converter in the faq or by searching. Can anyone point me to it? I'd really appreciate it. Trying to type it out is just not working. Thanks.

numeri

11-09-2005, 02:07 AM

MrWookie47

11-09-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't find the crypto hand converter in the faq or by searching. Can anyone point me to it? I'd really appreciate it. Trying to type it out is just not working. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you download the Dave G hand converter that's in the FAQ, it'll handle Crypto's. Dave G, if you're listening, have you given any thought to updating your converter to handle Prima and Absolute /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

numeri

11-09-2005, 02:13 AM

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Both villains here are loose and passive - they'll call down with any pair and don't raise without a very strong hand.

We have A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP.

Preflop: folded to us, we raise, folded to the blinds who both call.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, we bet, they call

Turn: (4.5 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
blinds check, we bet, they call

River: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif
blinds check, we bet, SB calls, BB check/raises, we fold

We're not obligated to call a river raise or check/raise. We need to bet here because both villains will call with a pair - we miss out on a ton of value if we check behind.

There are lots of other situations, of course. I hope this gives you an idea of what we're talking about.

numeri

11-09-2005, 02:15 AM

Hey Wookie,

I thought I made a post about this, but anyway. Check out this version (http://www.fourthnut.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi) of bisonbison's convertor. All you need to do is reorder the positions at the beginning so they're sequential. I read about it here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=software&Number=3735852&f part=1&PHPSESSID=).

MrWookie47

11-09-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Wookie,

I thought I made a post about this, but anyway. Check out this version (http://www.fourthnut.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi) of bisonbison's convertor. All you need to do is reorder the positions at the beginning so they're sequential. I read about it here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=software&Number=3735852&f part=1&PHPSESSID=).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good. I think I may update the FAQ with this link rather than the zerodivide link. Have you tested this converter out with other sites, just to be sure. I've only tested Party, Absolute, Stars, and UB. I don't have any from anywhere else that are current, and I'm not even sure which I should be testing. My main reason for the update, however, is that this link defaults to 2+2 format rather than FTR.

numeri

11-09-2005, 02:44 AM

I haven't tested any others, since I'm only on Absolute lately. I only play about 500 hands a week, so I never get through my bonus there.

11-09-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hypothetical situation:

Both villains here are loose and passive - they'll call down with any pair and don't raise without a very strong hand.

We have A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP.

Preflop: folded to us, we raise, folded to the blinds who both call.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, we bet, they call

Turn: (4.5 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
blinds check, we bet, they call

River: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif
blinds check, we bet, SB calls, BB check/raises, we fold

We're not obligated to call a river raise or check/raise. We need to bet here because both villains will call with a pair - we miss out on a ton of value if we check behind.

There are lots of other situations, of course. I hope this gives you an idea of what we're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. I had KK in almost the exact same situation last night. The only difference was, the betting was capped pre-flop with 1 of the villain's being aggressive, and there was a raise on the flop, so the pot was much bigger. At what size in BB would you say it's worth it to call a check-raise on the river? In your example, the pot was quite small, only 6BB, however what if the pot is over 10BB? In that case would a bet/fold still be right or would it be more appropriate to bet/call if raised? Thanks very much.

numeri

11-09-2005, 11:15 AM

There's no fine line when to call that river check/raise. 10BB is certainly getting there. It depends on the opponent as well. If the pot is 6BB on the river, we bet, and villain raises, it's then 9 BB to us. We have to be good at least one time in 10 or 10% of the time. In other words, the villain has to be bluffing 10% of the time.

If the pot is 10BB on the river, we bet, villain raises, then it's 13BB to us and we have to be good 1 time in 14 or only 7% of the time. A 15BB pot on the river - we only have to be good ~5% of the time. The bigger the pot, the less villain has to be bluffing for us to call.

All of this is opponent dependent. If I saw a 15BB pot on the river, I'm calling with my overpair pretty much every time. 10BB would be fairly often, but it would depend on the opponent. 6BB and I might call against an unknown or a tricky player, but not against the player described.

These decisions are rarely absolute, and they don't exist in a vacuum. What we decide depends on the size of the pot and how often we think our opponent is bluffing. The bigger the pot, the less often villain has to be bluffing to make a call profitable.

Hope that helps.

11-09-2005, 09:05 PM

It does help. Thanks a lot. I'll try that hand converter again and see if I can make it work.

SycoFrogg

11-09-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hypothetical situation:

Both villains here are loose and passive - they'll call down with any pair and don't raise without a very strong hand.

We have A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP.

Preflop: folded to us, we raise, folded to the blinds who both call.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, we bet, they call

Turn: (4.5 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
blinds check, we bet, they call

River: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif
blinds check, we bet, SB calls, BB check/raises, we fold

We're not obligated to call a river raise or check/raise. We need to bet here because both villains will call with a pair - we miss out on a ton of value if we check behind.

There are lots of other situations, of course. I hope this gives you an idea of what we're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn' betting the flop be giving the flush drawl the proper odds to call to the river?

Say the blinds are 4/8 that would put 24 into the pot preflop and with the possible flush drawl wouldnt checking the flop be the proper play? Then to bet the turn giving the drawler 4-1 money making it incorrect for him to continue?

numeri

11-09-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn' betting the flop be giving the flush drawl the proper odds to call to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The flush draw will have the odds regardless. (4-1 may be a bit low, but he can easily make up for it with implied odds.)

[ QUOTE ]
Say the blinds are 4/8 that would put 24 into the pot preflop and with the possible flush drawl wouldnt checking the flop be the proper play? Then to bet the turn giving the drawler 4-1 money making it incorrect for him to continue?

[/ QUOTE ]
Two issues:

1) The level doesn't matter. I gave you the number of bets - why do you need a dollar amount?

2) Before you make yourself look even more silly, it's a draw, not a drawl.

hizo1

11-09-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The issue is, these flush draws definitely have odds to keep drawing by this point, so I can't push them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Miller once posted that you and the flush draws are in a race/coin flip for the pot, and that any raising you do if for value and to protect your hand from non-flush draws.

11-09-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn' betting the flop be giving the flush drawl the proper odds to call to the river?

Say the blinds are 4/8 that would put 24 into the pot preflop and with the possible flush drawl wouldnt checking the flop be the proper play? Then to bet the turn giving the drawler 4-1 money making it incorrect for him to continue?

[/ QUOTE ]

We are not putting bets in necessarily to make it incorrect for a flush to draw (protection), we are putting bets in as we have the best hand, and will usually have the best hand by the river(value).