5/10 River bluff [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 12:09 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG ($1557.60)
MP ($1041.01)
Hero ($1041)
SB ($744)
BB ($1150.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $10, Hero calls $10, SB completes, BB raises to $25, MP calls $15, Hero calls $15, SB calls $15.

Flop: ($100) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $120, MP calls $120, Hero calls $120, SB folds.

Turn: ($460) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets $125, MP calls $125, Hero calls $125.

River: ($835) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $771 (All-In)

thabadguy

11-09-2005, 12:26 AM

I bomb flop hard.

greg nice

11-09-2005, 12:30 AM

that must mean all in

AZK

11-09-2005, 12:58 AM

move in on turn.

Prevaricator

11-09-2005, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
move in on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really hate this play, if you get called youre drawing dead a lot i think. I'd try to get it in on the flop.

Marduk

11-09-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
move in on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really hate this play, if you get called youre drawing dead a lot i think. I'd try to get it in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands that have him dead on the turn won't call an all-in on the flop?

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 02:05 AM

considering the way it was played, does anyone like/hate the river push?

yvesaint

11-09-2005, 02:07 AM

what plays like this though? wouldnt a set/2-pair that filled up raise the flop? i can see them flat calling turn, but not flat calling flop

and theres no draws that "hit" on the river....

of course, i can see how they both could be on draws ... they look like theyre all on draws

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 01:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
theres no draws that "hit" on the river....

[/ QUOTE ]

2 pair draw gets there (A10). I think the only question is can I get KK to fold here? Because that's about what BB has and other villian is likely on a draw.

Heimdal

11-09-2005, 02:30 PM

I think the river push is bad.

All players know the "check river to induce bluff play". KK should only fold if he thinks you have Axc. But not many players value bet Ax there. And if they do, they dont push. I think you are called to often to make it profitable.

It is also very obvious that you have a draw. You called twice. I know you fastplay your made hands so a boat is not possible. Do your opponents know this?

Groty

11-09-2005, 02:35 PM

You're trying to sell BB you were helped by the river ace (and that your most likely holding is AT). The problem is that many aggessive players in a short handed game will raise preflop with AT. If I were BB, because you didn't raise preflop, I would have a difficult time believing the river ace helped you. Seems like an all-in river bluff is a pretty risky move considering how the hand was played.

scdavis0

11-09-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
move in on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the way the action went on the turn, I agree that moving in looks strong. However generally speaking, wouldn't you rather just move in on the flop?

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 03:27 PM

re moving in on the flop:

I think I have ZERO fold equity against an overpair here. I hate playing draws that fast unless the draw is a huge one (this is a big draw but not like an OESFD) or I feel I have a decent amount of FE.

The turn: yeah moving in here looks decent. I figured I would just take the cheap card off figuring it was multiway and I had position.

Results: BB said he was folding KK, other villian folded.

thabadguy

11-09-2005, 03:34 PM

You lucky SOB, only hand that gets there, is AT, if he really folded KK, thats awful.

flawless_victory

11-09-2005, 03:36 PM

i would like this river AI w/ Ac5c.

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 03:42 PM

Another thing. Yeah I fastplay my good hands..sets, straights, quads, etc but thinking that my opponents know this (villians are not regulars) is giving the average 5/10'r way too much credit. I also don't give too much credit to player who makes a 1.5bb raise from the BB into a sea of callers.

So if villian does not know that I will fastplay a set then my hand range should include sets here also. There are tons of players who call this flop then when boated up on the turn, just call (it IS multiway) hoping the flush/straight draws get there. It's not how I would play it for sure but many would.

I think in this situation a good thinking player will call with KK, a donkey won't if that makes sense.

11-09-2005, 04:45 PM

I hate the river push and Ill tell you why. The way you played the hand, what so exciting about the ace that makes you want to move in? If you had a set, im 100% sure you would of raised on the flop with a bet and a caller with all kinds of draws out there. The turn where you just flat called there which either screams out a draw or monster, BUT since you didnt raise on the flop it seems more like a draw. Now when the As comes on the river they both check to you and you move in? The only possible hand you couldnt be bluffing there with would be A10. Ax of clubs would check down most likely. Thats just my POV.

AZK

11-09-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The turn: yeah moving in here looks decent. I figured I would just take the cheap card off figuring it was multiway and I had position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this better with the nut flush draw.

scdavis0

11-09-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing. Yeah I fastplay my good hands..sets, straights, quads, etc but thinking that my opponents know this (villians are not regulars) is giving the average 5/10'r way too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can regulars in the 5/10 game comment on this? This seems like an extremely disparaging comment on the quality of play in this game.

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 05:35 PM

Sure. Let's here from others. But at least 1/2 of 5/10ers won't be able to put the pieces of this bluff together. The play at 5/10 is not that good. 10/20 is way way way different however (from what I've played there).

thabadguy

11-09-2005, 05:39 PM

I really dont think i fold anything that cant beat a T on this river.

Prevaricator

11-09-2005, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
move in on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really hate this play, if you get called youre drawing dead a lot i think. I'd try to get it in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands that have him dead on the turn won't call an all-in on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, the turn paired the board. On the flop your fold equity makes up for the times they have a set since you can outdraw them a good % of the time

TheWorstPlayer

11-09-2005, 05:41 PM

I haven't played that much 5/10 but I have data-mined it a fair amount and have played there a bit and have not seen that much good play. I have also seen some bloody terrible play (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=387892 8&page=6&fpart=all).

HoldEmKillah

11-09-2005, 05:46 PM

dear gawd that's bad.

Heimdal

11-09-2005, 06:05 PM

I agree with everything HEK said.
I havent played much with HEK but in my PTDB I have three hands with him from yesterday were he called a raise with a small PP, flopped a set and played it fast on flop. Knowing this gives me an edge if I get into a pot against him. Plyers without PT doesnt have this edge

It think there are a lot of players without PT. Not that you cant play good poker without PT, but when you play thousands of hands each day it is easier to get reads on opponents when you can look up how often they raise, how they play draws, how they play made hands etc.

The player pool is big and most players are not very observant. And to get a very good read on a player you have to have played more than one session with him.