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Olback
11-08-2005, 11:42 PM
Was i correct to push here? BB was chip leader but was very passive. I had started to push a few hands but not a pushbot.

Can anyone fold here?

#Game No : 3005028540
***** Hand History for Game 3005028540 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:17251681 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Tuesday, November 08, 21:19:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 69757 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Olback17 ( $1765 )
Seat 3: LilJFergz ( $2975 )
Seat 6: elchuque ( $1925 )
Seat 9: ScottyB24 ( $1335 )
Trny:17251681 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Olback17 [ Kd 8s ]
elchuque folds.
ScottyB24 folds.
Olback17 is all-In [1615]
>You have options at Table 67396 Table!.
LilJFergz calls [1465].

11-09-2005, 12:20 AM
I'd normally push here as well, but lately I've been reading that you don't want to push into the bigstack while you are on the bubble unless you have a very good hand.

I'd really like to hear what the more experienced 2+2ers have to say as well.

Olback
11-09-2005, 11:19 PM
Anyone else have any thoughts?

JJKillian
11-09-2005, 11:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd normally push here as well, but lately I've been reading that you don't want to push into the bigstack while you are on the bubble unless you have a very good hand.

I'd really like to hear what the more experienced 2+2ers have to say as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't been around very much over the past month or so, but I would imagine they are talking about pushing into the big stack with fewer chips than in this situation, but I could be wrong.

As far as the hand. I read a long time ago a post (not on two + two) about pushing any two out of the SB. After reading many replies on it..........much more math than I am going to put here. The push range on k/x was k/8o or k/3s. Funny thing here is seems like I when I do those two I get called, hehe. Probably just because I remember it so much. Either way I push here as well.

What did the guy wake up with? My guess is top 4pp or a/k. Ya said he was passive so that is my guess on his hand.

Laterz

JJ

Olback
11-09-2005, 11:54 PM
He had a,q. But i am still unsure if i should have folded here, given i can bully the other stacks. I would usually push this all day unless the guy was loose, but maybe this is not such a great move.

JJKillian
11-10-2005, 12:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
He had a,q. But i am still unsure if i should have folded here, given i can bully the other stacks. I would usually push this all day unless the guy was loose, but maybe this is not such a great move.

[/ QUOTE ]

just bad timing bro, happens to all of us. Going to be harder to bully the other stacks when your going to be oop against them. PF that is. And with these blinds most of the plays are going to be PF.

Laterz

JJ

Uppercut
11-10-2005, 01:21 AM
You have 6BB left and the first two players have folded to you. I push here with K8o approximately 100% of the time. You still have tons of fold equity against the big stack.

11-10-2005, 01:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else have any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have thoughts. You played the bad hand but you tried the steal but it did not work. I think maybe you should wait for better hand like JJ or even 1010 but even then I sometimes lose to the ace.

davehwm
11-10-2005, 01:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else have any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have thoughts. You played the bad hand but you tried the steal but it did not work. I think maybe you should wait for better hand like JJ or even 1010 but even then I sometimes lose to the ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon man! We're not going to make it at the $33s together with that kind of attitude!

PUSH!!

Femto
11-10-2005, 01:28 AM
Push, and it's not close. If you want to save yourself the time of posting this type of question, do yourself a big favor and buy Eastbay's SnG Power Tools (http://www.sitngo-analyzer.com/).

11-10-2005, 01:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else have any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have thoughts. You played the bad hand but you tried the steal but it did not work. I think maybe you should wait for better hand like JJ or even 1010 but even then I sometimes lose to the ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon man! We're not going to make it at the $33s together with that kind of attitude!

PUSH!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the all in is best with the king and 8 because we want to get at least the 3 place.

Femto
11-10-2005, 01:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the all in is best with the king and 8 because we want to get at least the 3 place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a gimmick account and I'm just stupid today?

splashpot
11-10-2005, 01:33 AM
Don't worry bro. Pushing here is easy. I push every time.

11-10-2005, 01:34 AM
wot

splashpot
11-10-2005, 01:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the all in is best with the king and 8 because we want to get at least the 3 place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a gimmick account and I'm just stupid today?

[/ QUOTE ]
No offense to that guy, but most of his advice is pretty bad. I sincerely believe he's serious about his advice. It's just not good advice.

11-10-2005, 01:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the all in is best with the king and 8 because we want to get at least the 3 place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a gimmick account and I'm just stupid today?

[/ QUOTE ]
No offense to that guy, but most of his advice is pretty bad. I sincerely believe he's serious about his advice. It's just not good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think a king and an 8 is great hand? I do not and not even if it was sutted because most of time you have 4th place and not win money.

davehwm
11-10-2005, 01:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I sincerely believe he's serious about his advice. It's just not good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful. If so, it's some of the greatest unintentional humor I've ever seen.

ilya
11-10-2005, 01:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else have any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

clear shove.

splashpot
11-10-2005, 01:45 AM
Look. I bet most of the people on this forum don't believe you're actually bad at english. Most people here probably think you're faking. I actually believe you. I think you're misguided, but I believe you are honest in your quest to learn better poker. But your advice is mostly bad.

I did not say K8 is a great hand. I said it is correct to push all in in this situation. If you don't see why, you need to read more about blind stealing, ICM, fold equity, bubble pushing, etc. You can read more about that stuff here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=191873 5&fpart=&PHPSESSID=). This is all very basic stuff so you should read it if you want to improve.

11-10-2005, 01:47 AM
I fold.

edit: Wahh everyone disagrees! I dunno, just think I get spite called so much in $22s, as if a typical $22er would fold Ax here. Most players call more than they should. I'm pretty sure it's not 'easy shove' or shove with 'any two' though.

11-10-2005, 01:49 AM
slashpot I thank you for the link I will read it and learn it if it helps me win better. I am here to learn and please be careful that my English is not g00t. I am sometime the more eager here and if I put all words in a dictionary I will forget what I was doing the writing about! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mr_J
11-10-2005, 03:58 AM
I'd recommend that you play the $11s until you understand how to play shorthanded in sngs. Not taking a shot at you, just that's it's pretty damn important. I can't see how you'd be profitable if you wouldn't push K8 there, so maybe keep the stakes low while your learning.

tigerite
11-10-2005, 08:24 AM
It's very rare to find an opponent who this push isn't profitable against. Certainly with the way you've described him, he's not one of those opponents. I would definitely push here.

bennies
11-10-2005, 09:24 AM
why didnt u say right away that he had aq? I mean, who pushes into monsters of their own free will? Cmon man, get a grip, stop the tilting.

11-10-2005, 12:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd recommend that you play the $11s until you understand how to play shorthanded in sngs. Not taking a shot at you, just that's it's pretty damn important. I can't see how you'd be profitable if you wouldn't push K8 there, so maybe keep the stakes low while your learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had played many of the $10 games but I won a lot of money with them so I moved to the $20 game were I am now and I am still winning. I like to get in money position first then I may gambel with some not good hands but not too often because the bad guy will call.

mhcmarty
11-10-2005, 12:53 PM
About the only situation I wouldn't push here would be if I could count on the chip leader to move in on the on the other 2 pre-flop when they were SB, BB. If he had folded to them a couple of times pre-flop I push, push, push.

illegit
11-10-2005, 12:57 PM
Easiest push ever.

OK, there are easier ones, but this is basically tied with a lot of other ones as very super easy.

Mr_J
11-10-2005, 01:15 PM
"I like to get in money position first then I may gambel"

The idea is to set yourself up for first, and you do this BEFORE you make it in the money. Being able to play well 4-6 handed is very important in sngs.

Femto
11-10-2005, 04:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's very rare to find an opponent who this push isn't profitable against. Certainly with the way you've described him, he's not one of those opponents. I would definitely push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this push mathematically unexploitable? There is no opponent this isn't profitable against.

splashpot
11-10-2005, 04:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's very rare to find an opponent who this push isn't profitable against. Certainly with the way you've described him, he's not one of those opponents. I would definitely push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this push mathematically unexploitable? There is no opponent this isn't profitable against.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not profitable against an opponent who will call with any 2 cards. Do the ICM calc if you don't have SNGPT.

Femto
11-10-2005, 04:40 PM
Look 18 replies up, I already plugged SNGPT. I don't have access to it on public comps though.

What is the breakeven range then, if any 2 calling isnt profitable?

PS- thanks for changing your avatar to something easier on the eyes.

splashpot
11-10-2005, 04:42 PM
It's profitable if he calls with top 25% or tighter. That's 22+,A2+,KTo+,K8s+,QTs+.

joeg
11-10-2005, 04:55 PM
But arnt you likely to be a favourite against an opponent who will call with any 2 cards, plus there is deadmoney in the pot?

splashpot
11-10-2005, 04:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But arnt you likely to be a favourite against an opponent who will call with any 2 cards, plus there is deadmoney in the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Being a favorite is not the point. Understanding this requires understanding ICM and fold equity. Also read posts like this one (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=711461&page=& view=&sb=5&o=14&fpart=).

tewall
11-10-2005, 07:21 PM
Here you are recommending a tool which would make it unnecessary to post this type of question, yet you are asking the same type of question elsewhere in the thread (i.e. where you are asking if it mathematically unexploitable to push).

tewall
11-10-2005, 07:26 PM
Thanks for the link.

Femto
11-10-2005, 07:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Here you are recommending a tool which would make it unnecessary to post this type of question, yet you are asking the same type of question elsewhere in the thread (i.e. where you are asking if it mathematically unexploitable to push).

[/ QUOTE ]

ya ya, it's been a long day, blah blah blah /images/graemlins/crazy.gif pardon my insanity.

tewall
11-10-2005, 08:10 PM
Sure. I was just confused (that's never happened before).

joeg
11-11-2005, 11:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
But arnt you likely to be a favourite against an opponent who will call with any 2 cards, plus there is deadmoney in the pot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Being a favorite is not the point. Understanding this requires understanding ICM and fold equity. Also read posts like


[/ QUOTE ]

Usefull post you linked to, does that also mean inversly that I should be much more inclined to take coin flips once in the final 3 as the jump from 2nd to 1st is much bigger than the jump from 3rd to second?

SonnyJay
11-11-2005, 12:05 PM
Thanks for the link splashpot. I've been shouting about prize pool equity and fold equity in many threads lately but I hadn't seen Aleo's post. Good one.

-SonnyJay

SonnyJay
11-11-2005, 12:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Usefull post you linked to, does that also mean inversly that I should be much more inclined to take coin flips once in the final 3 as the jump from 2nd to 1st is much bigger than the jump from 3rd to second?

[/ QUOTE ]

The general idea is that you should be pushing in situations where you're likely to get a fold and you should be judicious when calling. "Taking coinflips" is a consequence (as Aleo said, not a bad consequence) of your primary goal of taking the blinds going wrong.

Obviously the best way to do this is to have position (where you don't have many people left to act behind you who can call). The other way is to have a good enough hand that even though you have more people left to act, you may have better odds than a coinflip when you get called to compensate for the greater likelihood of a call.

Main point: don't call as many pushes. Make more pushes that will likely fold your opponents.

-SonnyJay