Too Many 4th's

[Ragnarok]

Seem to be busting out in 4th place alot lately. Here is an example from tonight. I debated long then called. Villian seems to be decent player.


***** Hand History for Game 3005189701 *****
200/400 TOURNEY TEXAS HOLD'EM GAME TABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 17252433) - TUE NOV 08 21:44:54 EST 2005
Table Table 67138 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: jhkues_party (1520)
Seat 4: andyt9659 (1915)
Seat 6: MFFL420 (1255)
Seat 9: domatrix (3310)
jhkues_party posts small blind (100)
andyt9659 posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jhkues_party [ Kd, Qd ]
MFFL420 folds.
domatrix raises (400) to 400
jhkues_party calls (300)
andyt9659 raises (1715) to 1915
andyt9659 is all-In.
domatrix folds.
jhkues_party calls (1120)
jhkues_party is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $3440 with jhkues_party
Creating Side Pot 1 with $395 with andyt9659
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7h, Ah, Tc ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 3440 | Side Pot 1: 395
Board: [ 7h Ah Tc 3s 8c ]
jhkues_party balance 0, lost 1520 [ Kd Qd ] [ high card ace -- Ah,Kd,Qd,Tc,8c ]
andyt9659 balance 3835, bet 1915, collected 3835, net +1920 [ 9h 9c ] [ a pair of nines -- Ah,Tc,9h,9c,8c ]
MFFL420 balance 1255, didn't bet (folded)
domatrix balance 2910, lost 400 (folded)

[jedinite]

If you're going to call a push, I would have pushed preflop.

Why are u in this hand?

[splashpot]

I wouldn't have even called the first raise.

[golfcchs]

What range do you put andy on? Is KQ even 40-60 against this range?

Hi jhkues,

I can see that you are new here, welcome to the forums. I'm pretty new myself, been studying a few months but got a long ways to go. As you can see by everybody else's reply so far, KQ suited isn't enough to call a preflop raise in most cases, let alone a push.

I'm going out on a limb here and thinking that maybe you haven't been playing poker too long, or at least haven't been studying it real hard for too long. While coming here for help is definitely the right idea, I'd recommend reading a couple books first:

Harrington on Hold'em -- Expert Strategy for No-Limit Tournaments; Volume 1: Strategic Play, and
Harrington on Hold'em -- Expert Strategy for No-Limit Tournaments; Volume 2: The Endgame, both by Dan Harrington and Bill Robertie.

Read them cover to cover, and take the time to work through all the problems. This will help get you up to the level where you can really start using the 2+2 forums to maximum benefit. You'll be able to answer for yourself questions like the one you posted fairly easily. And it'll definitely help cut back on the snarky replies! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Best of luck,
Baz

Given the blinds, your position, and your stack you should either be pushing preflop or folding preflop. A min raise in this situation creates an altogether bad situation as you've seen.

For one thing, the BB is getting ~3:1 to call you if nothing else. Those are pretty tempting odds and I'd be inclined to move in with any ace against your weak raise.

Like mentioned before, your best case scenario on this call is being on the ass end of a coin flip. That's if you're lucky and he has a pocket pair under QQ. Otherwise, the guy isn't pushing with worse than KQ. Don't be seduced by that hand. It looks pretty at first but you'll lose a lot playing it into raises.

Just consider the possible hands he'd make this play with:

AA, KK, QQ - you're a total dog.
JJ through 66 - you're on the idiot end of the coin flip.
AK, AQ, AJ, AT, Ax - you're either dominated or you're behind.

None of those look very good to me. That's why I'm folding preflop.

You should attempt to change your 4th places to at least 3rd, but maybe better.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
You should attempt to change your 4th places to at least 3rd, but maybe better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Reading more and more of your posts, I'm starting to think you're a troll. You say English isn't your first language, but how do you know the "slang" term g00t then?

YSSCKY.

[SonnyJay]

With 1500 chips and 100/200 blinds...

1. You should be pushing if you're going to play a hand for a raise.
2. You should be looking for spots to do it where no one else has entered the pot before you, much less raised it.

Position and being the first to open are so important when it gets down to the bubble, so this is probably part of the problem of finishing 4th often. Essentially, the blinds are so large your first priority is to try to win them without any confrontation. This is why under typoical circumstances (I haven't been pushing too much, there aren't any desperate short stacks) I'll push pretty much any 2 from the SB, because I'm folding the BB frequently. I also am much more cautious when I'm first to act, and I'm really cautious when someone has entered the pot before me.

Good luck.

-SonnyJay

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should attempt to change your 4th places to at least 3rd, but maybe better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Reading more and more of your posts, I'm starting to think you're a troll. You say English isn't your first language, but how do you know the "slang" term g00t then?

YSSCKY.

[/ QUOTE ]

After I played well at the $10 games and moved up to $20 I wanted to come here for people to help me improve to get to $200 level fast. I ask my friend what name to choose here and he said "I Play G00t" because I am a good player. He was laughing.

[Hornacek]

Who is your friend? Is English his first language? Where do you live?

I'm even more skeptical that you couldn't even make up your own name. Seems like our foreign posters here can do that by themselves.

LEAVE TROLL.

His name is Jamal Washington and he goes college with me. He is American but comes here to learn African Studies. I could not think of a g00t name for me here so he suggests. He is my best friend.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
His name is Jamal Washington and he goes college with me. He is American but comes here to learn African Studies. I could not think of a g00t name for me here so he suggests. He is my best friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon guys...clutter? yes. But its FREE entertainment...don't scare him away.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
His name is Jamal Washington and he goes college with me. He is American but comes here to learn African Studies. I could not think of a g00t name for me here so he suggests. He is my best friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

(and I hate writing "lol", but seriously)

[valenzuela]

Congratulations, you played the hand in the worst possible way.

You need to change your game dramaticly, start by the FAQ.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian seems to be decent player.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by "decent"?
It is the only real info you gave us, but it doesn't say much.

What is the buy-in?
By "decent" player, do you mean he's been raising most hands with his big stack? Has he min raised before?

If he's been playing tight (not a decent player), then his raise indicates strength and it's a clear fold PF.

If he's been raising big most hands (like a decent player might do), then his min raise smells like a big pocket pair like he wants action.

If he's been min raising almost every hand, then you should push over top.

With only the info you gave, I'd say fold, but if you've been paying attention to the game, you might find that the info points to pushing.

[zambonidrivr]

just keep shoving it in.

[z32fanatic]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have even called the first raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have even called the first raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I would've pushed though. I feel like people are advocating folding.

When it gets back to you you've fvcked up the hand so badly I think you have to call.

[z32fanatic]

I'm folding here because I'll still have 7BB, not so short I'm ready to repush with K high here. Additionally, when you're the SB, the next shortest stack is the BB, perfect for bubble pushing. You're not desperate yet so I would fold.

[DPCondit]

This is bad. I wouldn't call the first raise with KQ, and then the second raise, what were you thinking? You really shouldn't be calling raises with a hand like that. C'mon, you're a dog to any ace or any pair.

[sofere]

Easy fold pf as everyone said, but after calling the minraise, you have to call the push given that the other guy folded and your last to act. There's just too much dead money in the pot.