Another One for Arfinn

[lehighguy]

The smaller European countries (Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, etc.) have been able to build very good socialist societies by avoiding the worst drawbacks of those idealogies. Just look at the foresight the Norewegian Oil Fund shows. Often, they get a bad wrap because of the pitiful way France of Germany run thier affairs.

Is thier success due partially to thier size? As governments get bigger you find that politicians are increasingly more likely to dodge responsibility and stick it to the other guy. In America the worst pork spending is usually by Senators who justify it as pumping money back into the state. They are even praised by thier electorate. It has horrible delerious effects on the rest of the country, but they are all somewhere else. This critique could be extended beyond politics to culture and business as well.

I think this is part of the reason France and Germany have harder times. Also, I think it is part of the reason that the expansion of federal power in the US has been so unsuccessful.

Does size matter?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

It seems to me, that in Western Europe the smaller countries have been more on the ball so to speak. They have been more active in changing policy to address futural challenges while the larger countries seems to act only when forced to. I.e. the demographic change the next decades will bring with regards to a larger share of the population too old to work, is more or less addressed and solved in some of the smaller countries (in Norway it took a 15 year long debate to reach a sustainable compromise) while the larger countries seem to act too late (I predict this as the next big France/Germany-problem).

What causes this, I don't know. It becomes just speculation from my side, but a personal theory I have, is that in the smaller countries the distance between the population and the politicians is shorter, and thus the politicians are more trusted, and can implement policy changes that are unpopular at the time.


About the pork part, I don't know. There is considerable pork in Norway and Sweden too. One of the examples (this is really insane):

Our bridge to nowhere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skarnsund_Bridge)

[sam h]

The most successful countries in Europe right now do indeed tend to be smaller, but it is not clear that size itself is the reason for their success. The small northern European countries have tended to very successfully blend open-trading economies with high levels of social protection and high levels of political stability. For many of these countries, an extensive welfare state is clearly part of the optimal policy package.

The larger continental European countries, basically France and Germany, just need to be discussed separately. Both have had much more difficulty in enacting reforms to adapt to new global realities. Part of this is that the entrenched actors, like labor unions and business associations, are more powerful and/or less compliant with the desires of social democratic parties. For France, there is also a certain amount of economic nationalism. Right-wingers in France are still statists. Germany looks more pragmatic. Everybody there knows that change is needed, and I think it will happen in the next decade. You also can't talk about Germany without understanding how massive the costs of absorbing East Germany have been. It's like if we united with Mexico right now and US labor markets and US social services were just extended.

Overall, the big point is that you can't have an intelligent discussion about these changes unless you start talking about the countries separately and, when talking about reforms, looking at separate policy areas. Some policies in France and Germany certainly need to be changed, but others may not. There are a lot of advantages that can come with having a very healthy, well-trained and well-educated workforce. How those advantages play out in a 21st century marked by a type of international economic competition based around knowledge and innovation is very hard to tell right now. The only thing for sure is that wholeheartedly adopting a US-style model is neither feasible nor in the best interests of any of these countries.

[lehighguy]

WEll it isn't just pork. I think alot of it has to do with the fact that most solutions only satisfy the groups the politician represents rather then actually provide a workable solution for everyone.

It's someone elses problem is the theme of the day.

[Olof]

As far as I know Ireland is one of the least (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Ireland) socialist EU countries, so I don't think it is correct to lump them in with Norway etc.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the examples (this is really insane)

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, at least it's a toll bridge!

Our porkers don't have that much farsightedness.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the examples (this is really insane)

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, at least it's a toll bridge!

Our porkers don't have that much farsightedness.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They paid most of it cash, since they realized that the toll collected would be less than interest and thus the investment could never be paid back. They just left a fraction to be paid by toll.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
WEll it isn't just pork. I think alot of it has to do with the fact that most solutions only satisfy the groups the politician represents rather then actually provide a workable solution for everyone.

It's someone elses problem is the theme of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really a big problem in Norway too (the biggest obstacle to improvements IMO). I don't know so much about the other small countries.

<ul type="square"> SARCASM ALERT!... SARCASM ALERT!... SARCASM ALERT!... [/list]


Arnfinn Madsen, please turn on your Sarcasm Detector.

Arnfinn Madsen, please turn on your Sarcasm Detector.

That is all. We now return you to your regularly scheduled
forum reading. Thank you for your cooperation.




/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I realized it was sarcasm /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Just did not want to let our politicians off the hook by calling it a toll bridge /images/graemlins/smile.gif. The users pay something like 1/10 of the real cost. Innocent citizens the rest. It is from the mainland to the mainland by the way and did not connect any new place to the national road network /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

Okay, enough about this stupid bridge /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[jj_frap]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know Ireland is one of the least (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Ireland) socialist EU countries, so I don't think it is correct to lump them in with Norway etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though their socialist former president had a 93% approval rating at one point and only didn't run for re-election because she was invited to chair the U.N. High Commission for Human Rights?

[Olof]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know Ireland is one of the least (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Ireland) socialist EU countries, so I don't think it is correct to lump them in with Norway etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though their socialist former president had a 93% approval rating at one point and only didn't run for re-election because she was invited to chair the U.N. High Commission for Human Rights?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, one could do like me and look at the fact that Ireland is one of the freest economies in the world with strong private property rights, unregulated labour market, and very low (by Western European standards) taxes. Or, one can do like you and look at the fact that someone who is apparently socialist only in name, or had no power whatsoever over economic policy, at one time enjoyed a high approval rating. I think my way is better.