an aspiring stockbroker

[CallYNotRaise06]

my son is 17 and wants to get into a career in the stock market. i think he wants to be self employed. pretty much buying and selling stocks himself. any adive you could give him?

what should he major in?
any good colleges you could reccomend?
whats the average salary?
should he go self employed or should he get a job with a company?

thanks

[cwsiggy]

Being a stockbroker is being a salesman. If he thinks he will like sales and hundreds of phone calls a day, then go for it.
Otherwise, I would suggest eventually getting an MBA and trying to get more into the investment side of the market either in analysis, risk management, trading, etc.

Finance degree undergrad I suppose.

[Paluka]

He is only 17, therefore it is basically way to early for you to be asking any of these questions.
There is no reason to major in finance. For trading jobs people who majored in the hard sciences and engineering are highly sought after.
Good schools? Same as they are for anything. If you can get into Harvard, you should go.
Sorry for the quick answers, but I'm off to bed soon.

if he wants to trade for himself education wise a degree in accounting is what i would recommmend, soak up everything he can about the market....

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
my son is 17 and wants to get into a career in the stock market. i think he wants to be self employed. pretty much buying and selling stocks himself. any adive you could give him?

[/ QUOTE ]

He should major in Business Management to get a firm grounding in all areas of running a company... making sure to take courses in Economics, Finance, Accounting, Computer Programming and Psychology.

If he's going to eventually trade on his own, he's going to work for him self as a day trader... have him consider trading an extra self-directed course during his college years... read everything, subscribe to IBD amd WSJ, setup a marketocracy account to put theory into practice.

When he's ready, have him save some money from summer/college jobs and seed him some starting capital and let him start trading part time while in school (maybe in his junior year, once he's proven that he has an interest and some skills required).

[buffett]

what cwsiggy said.

[midas]

Call-

A few questions and comments:

1. How are your son's grades and test scores?

2. He should try to get into a good under grad business school. Wharton, Boston College, UVA, Michigan, UCLA

3. I think it's too earlier in life for your son to say he wants to be self employed - when he graduates, he will need training and real world experience then he can be self-employed.

4. I agree with other comment - think of a stock broker like a car salesman and you'll have a better perspective on the job. FYI, I don't think you need a high school diploma to be a stock broker.

[FishHooks]

If I'm not mistaken I think our finance program here at the University of Florida is top 10, good school too look into. Also if he looks at this school, you can also get a minor in entrepreneurship (the only minor in business you can get while having a major in business), which would probably help him out greatly. I agree that finance would be his best option as regards to major.

[buffett]

You forgot to mention Florida's greatest asset....the Graham-Buffett Teaching Endowment given by Mason Hawkins. If you get an MBA from Florida, you can actually major in Graham-Buffett Security Analysis.

[CallYNotRaise06]

[ QUOTE ]
1. How are your son's grades and test scores?


[/ QUOTE ]

he has a 3.7 gpa and a 27 ACT score.

[CallYNotRaise06]

[ QUOTE ]
He is only 17, therefore it is basically way to early for you to be asking any of these questions.
There is no reason to major in finance. For trading jobs people who majored in the hard sciences and engineering are highly sought after.
Good schools? Same as they are for anything. If you can get into Harvard, you should go.
Sorry for the quick answers, but I'm off to bed soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

what direction do you think he should go to become a stock trader? im tryin to help him decide what he wants to major in, and i really dont know much about stocktrading. im sort of trying to point him in the general direction for it. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

have you thought maybe its not a good idea that he not get into trading?

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is only 17, therefore it is basically way to early for you to be asking any of these questions.
There is no reason to major in finance. For trading jobs people who majored in the hard sciences and engineering are highly sought after.
Good schools? Same as they are for anything. If you can get into Harvard, you should go.
Sorry for the quick answers, but I'm off to bed soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

what direction do you think he should go to become a stock trader? im tryin to help him decide what he wants to major in, and i really dont know much about stocktrading. im sort of trying to point him in the general direction for it. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he really wants to be a trader, the best undergraduate majors are mathematics, hard sciences, computer science and engineering. Trading is about math, not about business.

it depends. if you want to be really independent he could probably get capital from a day trading type firm. dont know how easy that is these days. its tough though and generally you only get paid if you earn it.
i suppose if you want a trading job at a big firm with a real salary you probably want to get a degree in finance or economics.
At an independent type firm it wont really matter. but studying the market by reading the wsj, forbes, etc. is good for this. econ or math are probably good majors for this type of thinking.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]

i suppose if you want a trading job at a big firm with a real salary you probably want to get a degree in finance or economics.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't true. I wish people would stop posting this.

true.....finance or econ classes aint gonna teach you to sell or hold if there is a panic sell off or why TAYD takes off when there is a 9.0 earthquake in tokyo

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i suppose if you want a trading job at a big firm with a real salary you probably want to get a degree in finance or economics.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't true. I wish people would stop posting this.

[/ QUOTE ]

As an undergrad majoring in finance, the job market would really rather I had studied math/physics/comp sci/etc.

how do you know you are so right and everyone else is wrong?
you should stop being so sure of yourself you would probably be better at your job

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
how do you know you are so right and everyone else is wrong?
you should stop being so sure of yourself you would probably be better at your job

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't like my advice, you can ignore it. I'm trying to be helpful.

[midas]

I never took the ACT tests for college but I'll assume that's a good score. He should apply to all those colleges on my previous list and add University of Chicago and Notre Dame as well. Any undergrad degree in finance or accounting with a GPA of 3.3 or higher from one of those schools and no doors will be closed to your son once he graduates.

[FishHooks]

i believe a 27 is about the same as a 1150 on the SAT, could be wrong, but I believe it's in that range.

[runner4life7]

Sorry to hijack but I'm in a similar position but a few years later down. I started as a nuclear engineer and am now switching to econ with a math based option to use all the math Ive taken.

Two questions I guess
My grades were not good in eng. If I do a ton better in econ from here on out and do steller on the GMAT(35 on ACT, I can do very well on pointless standarized tests to hopefully make up for the GPA) is it possible to still get into a top Business school.

Is going to a top business school where I should go from here to be a trader/investor, someone that works with the #s?

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to hijack but I'm in a similar position but a few years later down. I started as a nuclear engineer and am now switching to econ with a math based option to use all the math Ive taken.

Two questions I guess
My grades were not good in eng. If I do a ton better in econ from here on out and do steller on the GMAT(35 on ACT, I can do very well on pointless standarized tests to hopefully make up for the GPA) is it possible to still get into a top Business school.

Is going to a top business school where I should go from here to be a trader/investor, someone that works with the #s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about investment banking, so that I can't answer. I know a lot of people who are derivatives traders. None of them went to business school. Only a small portion majored in finance or econ. I don't think grades are particularly important, although that could be different if you are graduating from a school without an amazing reputation. I also destroyed the ACTs (36/36/36/35) but never did me a bit of good at any point in my life.
If you are smart and good with numbers, I think an advanced degree in Mathematical Finance or Financial Engineering much better than going to business school.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
true.....finance or econ classes aint gonna teach you to sell or hold if there is a panic sell off or why TAYD takes off when there is a 9.0 earthquake in tokyo


[/ QUOTE ]

Heh /images/graemlins/smile.gif Nothing will except experience and that often fails in a panic situation as well.

Trading just isn't taught. Being a brilliant well educated individual does not insure trading success. And several very successful traders have very little book learning.

Trading is more of an art than a science. That's not to say that certain areas of trading don't involve a great deal of mathematical expertise as some areas are purely mathematical. In my career I have done a lot of arbitrage type trading as well as trade research which were both very math intensive. And options type trading is more math intesive than straight futures market making. But your typical floor traders (and nowadays screen traders) rely mainly on experience and an inate ability which isn't the part of any curiculim.

There are lots of different traders. Being a bond options trader is way different than being a bond trader. NY equities are different from Houston energy traders by a wide margin and some guy banging out scalps in his basement on tradestation is a lot different from the spread scalping I do and a bean crush or crude crack spreader is way different from typical bean and crude traders. There are lots of different opportunities called "traders" but while similar many of them are very different from each other.

[Officer Farva]

In terms of majors, theres two ways of going about things.
1) Shoot for a high GPA.
2) Shoot for a quantitative major.

Of course the third option is to do what is most interesting and rewarding. Advise your son to try a lot of different coursework in his first couple of years, and do what seems most interesting. I know plenty of English major brokers, and plenty of math major low lifes.

That all said, if your son really just sees the world in green, tell him to sac up and do the most quant major possible.

[lastsamurai]

The best advice for him to get into the financial industry is to major in finance... get your mba/cfa... and kiss alot of ass...

about 95% of being a stock broker is opening accounts and making trades for your clients... If he wants to be a successful stock broker i would have him enroll in a snobby school like USC...have him join a fraternity...party every night for 7 years and by the time he graduates he should have enough names and number to open up a pretty nice clientel list.

When i was working at my firm in NYC half the brokers barely graduated from high school...

[Paluka]

Does your son want to be a stock broker or does he want to be a trader? Does he know the difference?

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
Does your son want to be a stock broker or does he want to be a trader? Does he know the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is to the point. . .fwiw, I'm not a trader, I work for them on a trading desk.

The traders here all are very, very good at math and quantitative analysis. Traders interpret external events, market movements, trends, etc., to decide which positions they should be putting on to make money. They also have to decide how much risk they are willing to put on a position. They don't need social skills, management skills, and not too much macro econ knowledge (the caveat being is if he will be a macro trader) For the most part, the traders I've dealt with don't care about their position in a company and job title. They mostly care about how much $ they are given to trade, and how much risk they are allowed by the desk and how much money they will be keeping in a positive year.



Brokers are order takers and create a market for the traders. These guys have to make sure that the trader's orders are executed at or very close to the market. They sit around and take trade orders from a fund/bank/client and execute in the market. They can make judgment calls on the market and voice their opinion but they do not make the final decision.

You can make an analogy that traders are chefs. Brokers are the markets where the chef can get his ingredients.


I assume your son wants to trade cuz a lot of inexperienced people enterting finance want to trade. (i was one of them) For him to get a job out of school, he'll have to have strong math skills and some sort of experience in finance (internships). Having a college pedigree helps tremendously.

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
i think he wants to be self employed. pretty much buying and selling stocks himself.
thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

this is near impossible w/out years of positive track records. All the billion dollar fundmanagers started at a shop, which doesn't need to be a name brand employer (Tudor, Soros, SAC, or any big wall st bank). Anyway, they worked their way to hte top of the ladder and then got their own books w/plenty of leverage or they started their own funds bringing along the client's money who made money w/him over the years.

At the earliest, he'll be in his late twenties and that's for hte superstars. He won't be able to get seed money otherwise and unless he starts w/a decent nut, his position size and risk will be pathetically small.

salary-wise, that depends on his skill and luck. mid to high five figures straight of college with him getting around a few perecentage points of his profits. if he becomes a a winning trader, the sky is the limit. Guaranteed 7 figures w/bonuses roughly around 10-15% on millions of dollars.

you are wrong sir....

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
this is near impossible w/out years of positive track records. All the billion dollar fundmanagers started at a shop,

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to become a fund manager, in order to trade for your own account! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
Is going to a top business school where I should go from here to be a trader/investor, someone that works with the #s?

[/ QUOTE ]

for trading, listen to paluka, he knows way more about that field than me or others here.

for "working with #s", which I'll take to mean quantitative research, most of the really successful people in that field, afaik, have been physics/math phds, though something like a financial engineering masters wouldn't be bad preparation.

also, as far as getting into a "top business school", HBS and the like want work experience before they admit you, they really dont take kids straight out of undergrad as a rule.

[CallYNotRaise06]

[ QUOTE ]
have you thought maybe its not a good idea that he not get into trading?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats up to him, he has to do it the rest of his life. ill support him in whatever he wants to do. if he told me he wanted to be a pro poker player, id support him(but id make him get a degree as a back up)

[SonofJen]

[ QUOTE ]

ill support him in whatever he wants to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the most important part. However, at age 17 he really needs to keep his options open. Why, for instance, does he want to become a stock broker or trader? What interests and motivates him in life other than to ideally work for himself and make a lot of money?

More important than majoring in finance or math or going to a school that just has a good program in hard sciences, is to choose a school that fits with everything that your son is looking for. In the end, it is simply what you make of your experiences that matters most.

I know really solid people who majored in Art History and now work at Goldman Sachs, majored in Public Policy and now work at DE Shaw. Hell, I majored in Philosophy and work for a software start-up (granted, I'm hoping to go back to school for my MBA next fall). Consequently, I am a firm believer that, especially for one's undergraduate education, you should major in the subject or area that interests you most. To hedge your bets, however, sure, go ahead and take Accounting, Math, and Finance classes on the side (and as you should with all of your classes and endeavors, try to do as well as possible in these classes). The bottom line again is that whatever your son decides to do he should decide to do it well.

I should also stress the importance of internships while in college. Real work experience will help out a lot especially come senior year when your son needs to find a job. Freshman and sophomore summers are great times to explore various career paths and make sure that his current path is still in fact what he wants. Summer of junior year is the time to nail the best internship he can in the field that he wants to go into. (A lot of times this coveted internship is actually harder to get than the full time job offer when he graduates). To also assist in this self-discovery and skill building time of his life, encourage him to do informational interviews with professionals in the field but also encourage him to keep his horizons open and explore other opportunities as well. Most people job switch something on the order of 5-7 times with a few of those being substantial career switches. Whatever he decides to do at any stage in his life, he'll need a good foundation.

As far as trading specific advice, I agree a lot with what Sniper said. That type of learning happens both inside and outside of the classroom.

Lastly, good luck to your son. Make sure he realizes what an amazing opportunity for personal, academic, social, and professional growth the next four years will be regardless of where he goes or what he majors in. All the more important to make sure that he doesn't go through those four years with blinders on.