Move to $1/2 level ?

[Marat]

Hi all,

I'm playing at $0.5/1 level and I winning 3.1BB/100 hands (after 16000 hands).Now I tried move to $1/2 level, where I was destroyed. Back to $0.5/1, recovered losses, move to $1/2 and situation repeated. Players reraised me with 24o and rivered out my flopped sets, top pairs lost to runner, runner two bottom pairs, etc.

My question is:

Is level $1/2 that much different from $0.5/1 level??? I never saw that much maniacs at $0.5/1 as at $1/2! When I raise and reraise preflop I have least four callers.When I bet the flop and I don't have NUTS, I am death.

[Hellmouth]

Ive been struggling at 1/2 now and I dont know what to say yet. It does seem that players go to the river with much stronger hands and will only get aggressive when they have much stronger than average hands to show down.

I still have not adjusted well to this level. The pots arn't big enough to make up for my mistakes anymore. Also the rake seems to be a lot bigger chunk of each pot at this level.

Sorry I cant help more.

Greg

I've just recently moved up to $1/2 also. I've noticed that the players are more aggressive - especially preflop. I've tightened up my preflop standards (generally using SSH tight) and that has helped alot.

The other thing I've noticed is that sometimes I'll get on a loose passive table and everything is great for awhile. Everyone calling my aggression with 2nd pair and weak draws etc. Life is great until someone leaves. They get replaced by TAGs /images/graemlins/frown.gif Maybe my aggression and their calling is bloating the pots and sending out signals to the sharks.

Marat,

Do you have PokerAce? If not, it is definitely worth the $25. There are tons of bad players at $1/2, but I think the problem people have when they are moving up levels is that they respect their opponents too much. I think this was part of my problem at least. Yes there might occasionally be some good players at your tables now, but overall most of your opponents probably still stink. Getting the PokerAce HUD will let you distinguish the good players from the bad ones very quickly and might help you build confidence and improve your reads.

Another thing to work on is trying always to keep in mind what range of hands your opponents could have, instead of only playing your own cards. This is especially important when you are in hands with the better players.

Finally, the standard advice people on this forum will give you is to post some hands that give you trouble and to try responding to other people's posts.

[homebrewer]

I posted this a short-time ago, but I think many of us have had experience similar to yours. Careful analysis of your play might help you figure out how much of it is you and how much of your results are due to variance. Hang in there!

*****
Your experiences are very similar to mine. Not long ago I was "crushing" .5/1 full-ring and 6-max (about 30k hands too). I then made my 2nd foray into 1/2 6-max (the 1st was profitable but I found several leaks that I had to work on). My confidence was high and I was *running well*. I figured my 2nd try would be even more profitable - assuming I had improved my play.

I suffered a pretty good downswing almost immediately. I looked real hard at my hands and found several that I played poorly. However, I also found that I *seemed* to be running bad too. One of the things that affected me psychologically, but not really my play (at least I don't think so) was losing more in terms of actual dollars. The absolute dollar amount that I had lost was psychologically painful. Turns out that in terms of the actual number of BBs, my downswing at 1/2 was similar to other downswings that I've gone through in .50/1.

In similar threads, others have advocated "hanging in there" until things turn around. That's what I did and I ended up having a big turn around.

Marat,

I recently made a move to 1-2 as well and having a pretty good run at it for the first 3k hands or so ... im sure a lot of it is just hitting a good run of cards. One thing I have noticed is that play varies much more.

At .5 1, my playbook was pretty straightforward (since I tried to sit at mostly 35+ vpip tables) - raise with good hands, protect post-flop and value bet the river against bad players. At 1-2 I am seeing a lot more flops h/u and 3-handed as opposed to 5-handed, so my short handed game gets stressed more. Also, reads make a huge difference since the players sitting at 1-2 tables range from tight rocks, to TAGS, to LAGS to LPs & the tags seem taggier, Lags laggier etc.

[Webster]

I was like you guys and basically skipped 1/2. 2/4 is a better game. I STILL have problems in 1/2 at Party and I play MOSTLY 3/6 now.

1/2 is a tough place because you have good players (sort of) that are willing to gamble. The quality os 1/2 is just plan better - it's where real poker is starting to be played.

One thing you have to do is ALWAYS think in terms of big bets - not dollars. That will take some sticker shock away.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,Players reraised me with 24o and rivered out my flopped sets, top pairs lost to runner, runner two bottom pairs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is happening an inordinately large amount of times then it is variance. You should love to play against players like this. Just make sure you are protecting your hands adequately so as not to offer them correct odds to chase these crappy draws.

I didn't find 1/2 full ring to be that hard - I wasn't crushing it, but I was consistently squeezing out just over 1BB/100, and if I'd played more at Party I'm sure I would have done better.

I chose to play Absolute, where I discovered that the players are NOT that much better, they're just tighter. You can beat them, you just have to adjust your game. And yes, plug your leaks.

LAGs can be your friends. Just sit to their left. And get PT to keep track of your own stats, replay hands, etc. You don't need PAHUD (you should be able to quickly tell who's loose and who's aggressive at your table) but it might help.

And finally, if playing for higher stakes is on your mind at all, move back down until your bankroll big enough that the money doesn't matter. I recently made the jump from 1/2 to 2/4, but I waited until I had a 500 BB BR to even start taking shots, because I knew that if my cushion wasn't big I'd feel really bad about losing $100 at a single table. (Now, winning $150 at a single table, like I did last night...I like that better. /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Re: Move to any level ?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I discovered that the players are NOT that much better..., they're just <something>. You can beat them, you just have to adjust your game. And yes, plug your leaks.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Players reraised me with 24o and rivered out my flopped sets, top pairs lost to runner, runner two bottom pairs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If are bankrolled and these are the kind of folks that you encounter at 1/2, then you should run, not walk, to 1/2.

[Stealthy]

I think $1 $2 full can be tough if you are not running well. Most pots are 2 or 3 handed and you often have to make a decent hand to get the dough. Also if you get cold-decked and suffer a load of beats it is hard to fight back. The classical situation where you only get action if you are about to suckout, whilst your flop bet with aces full meets with 4 folds. I have grown ever frustrated with $1 $2 full because of this.

I played 5K hands at full for a .87BB/100 loss as my intro back into limit and fought back after 8k hands to 1.9BB/100 profit. After a horrid 1 hour session where I dropped 80BB 4 tabling where every hand seemed to get hit my miracle river outs I moved back to 6 Max where I had 4k hands previously.

This is where I would advise any decent player wanting to play $1 $2 to go. At Party all of the loose 70%+ VP$IP who are missing from $1 $2 full ring are to be found at 6 Max. The beats are still horrible as they chase everything but you will very often get called down with king, queen or even jack high. Most players on there would not dream of folding a monster hand like bottom pair! As long as you remember not to bluff players who will not fold basic ABC poker will win the day. There are plenty of maniacs who may be high varience to take on but will pump a pot for you when you have a monster hand to play.

The main thing that 6 Max gives me personally that full-ring does not is the abilty to come back. There was no good way back from my 80BB loss on Saturday at full ring so I moved to 6 Max. Despite losing another 30BB quite quickly and having numerous other bad beats (I flopped a set of Aces twice and kings once and lost all 3 to gutshots) I was able to recover to a 5BB loss for the day and I was happy.

$1 $2 6 Max on Party is as soft as limit poker gets and although you can still hit a huge slider if the cards go against you the play is so terrible that any half decent player should be beating it. The blinds coming around so fast does make it more high varience than full-ring but the play is significantly worse and it is more fun to play. Betting on the river for value with Ace high is a great feeling!

[jaxUp]

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[ QUOTE ]
Re: Move to any level ?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I discovered that the players are NOT that much better..., they're just <something>. You can beat them, you just have to adjust your game. And yes, plug your leaks.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

this is correct, and one of the best FYPs I've ever seen.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Re: Move to any level ?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I discovered that the players are NOT that much better..., they're just <something>. You can beat them, you just have to adjust your game. And yes, plug your leaks.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I can live with that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I was like you guys and basically skipped 1/2. 2/4 is a better game. I STILL have problems in 1/2 at Party and I play MOSTLY 3/6 now.

1/2 is a tough place because you have good players (sort of) that are willing to gamble. The quality os 1/2 is just plan better - it's where real poker is starting to be played.

One thing you have to do is ALWAYS think in terms of big bets - not dollars. That will take some sticker shock away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am wondering if most people think that 2/4 party is better than 1/2. I have been winning fairly consistently at 1/2 over the past month and a half (I know this is a short amount of time) and was considering adding one 2/4 to my multitabling (usually 3).

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was like you guys and basically skipped 1/2. 2/4 is a better game. I STILL have problems in 1/2 at Party and I play MOSTLY 3/6 now.

1/2 is a tough place because you have good players (sort of) that are willing to gamble. The quality os 1/2 is just plan better - it's where real poker is starting to be played.

One thing you have to do is ALWAYS think in terms of big bets - not dollars. That will take some sticker shock away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am wondering if most people think that 2/4 party is better than 1/2. I have been winning fairly consistently at 1/2 over the past month and a half (I know this is a short amount of time) and was considering adding one 2/4 to my multitabling (usually 3).

[/ QUOTE ]

its a better game if you can beat both

but if you can't beat 1/2, you won't beat 2/4

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Re: Move to any level ?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I discovered that the players are NOT that much better..., they're just <something>. You can beat them, you just have to adjust your game. And yes, plug your leaks.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I can live with that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

fyi it wasn't meant as a correction to your post...

just musing that it's always the same... .5/1 to 1/2, 1/2 to 2/4 3/6 to 5/10 ... etc

[ QUOTE ]
its a better game if you can beat both

but if you can't beat 1/2, you won't beat 2/4

[/ QUOTE ]

If I beat .01/.02 one day, I'm probably ready though right? It definitely is a good point though. Sometimes people think that if they can get to a level where people will "respect" their raises or other plays they can finally win.

How different is the play at that level on Party? Are players much better, tighter, looser, aggressive? Are there about the same number of players to the flop or more hands HU? Sorry for all the questions, but I just like to get a feel for a higher level before I try it.

[Guthrie]

Similar story. I was at 3.5BB/100 after 20K at .50/1. After 30K at 1/2 I'm down 250BB. I win the small pots and lose the big ones. All my stats are excellent, except winrate. They call with any pair, any draw, or any ace, then raise on the river when they hit. I get rivered so often that I've stopped betting the river to save having to decide between calling a raise or folding. If I'm holding pocket kings against four opponents and an ace comes on the flop, the most profitable action is to open fold and then make a side bet on which of the fish paired his rag kicker, because at least two of them have an ace.

[ QUOTE ]
After 30K at 1/2 I'm down 250BB. I win the small pots and lose the big ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems very stretchy to consider this to be substantially due to variance.

[Obliky]

I also just recently moved to 1/2.. i have to say that the players are much better. They still play too many hands, however they are much more aggro.
I got c/r on the flop more in one 1/2 session than i have in 1,000s of hands at 0.5/1.

However, it is immediately obvious to me that they are beatable...just more tricky.

I have been thinking alot recently about what makes one game more difficult than another. I believe a large part of the difficulty of a particular game is the aggressiveness of your average opponent. At 1/2 the players are more aggressive than 0.5/1, therefore you get into situations that you arent used to getting into or out of more often.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
its a better game if you can beat both

but if you can't beat 1/2, you won't beat 2/4

[/ QUOTE ]

If I beat .01/.02 one day, I'm probably ready though right? It definitely is a good point though. Sometimes people think that if they can get to a level where people will "respect" their raises or other plays they can finally win.

How different is the play at that level on Party? Are players much better, tighter, looser, aggressive? Are there about the same number of players to the flop or more hands HU? Sorry for all the questions, but I just like to get a feel for a higher level before I try it.

[/ QUOTE ]

the players aren't much better, a little more aggro

but if you are a losing 1/2 player, you aren't magically going to be a winner at 2/4

[kiemo]

http://www.visi.com/~kiemo/temp/Nov graph.jpg


Looking at my graph above you see I had a rough start as well at 1/2 and then kicked butt for almost 10k hands. And have since hit a horrid cold run, which has maginfied probably alot of bad playing.

I personally think 1/2 is much much harder to win at then .5/1 becuase you arent getting 4-5 people calling down with second pair all the time. These bloated pots at .5/1 are so frequent its easy to make alot of small mistakes and just make up for them when you hit the big one. At 1/2 I personally I find myself either winning small pots or losing big pots (especially with AJ, its like those cards just have suck me out written on them), but I probably nut peddle a little too much (which you can easily do at .5/1), and again I really think I have run really bad for the last 2 months.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,Players reraised me with 24o and rivered out my flopped sets, top pairs lost to runner, runner two bottom pairs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is happening an inordinately large amount of times then it is variance. You should love to play against players like this. Just make sure you are protecting your hands adequately so as not to offer them correct odds to chase these crappy draws.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's great advice of course. Shame when you cap preflop with AA and then raise after an innocuous flop, a guy sticks in there, catches a 5 on the turn and a 3 on the river to give him, YES, a straight, with A4o.

Catch a handful of those and you're in a 100BB+ downswing right there. Of course, long term you want to play these total idiots, but short term if can really screw up your game and your bankroll when you're on the beating end of it, even when you have a 300BB+ roll to play with.

I was over 150BB down very quickly on my move to 1/2. I've pulled it back to about 100B down over 8k hands but the suck outs because they can't fold their Ax and they keep on hitting their 3 outer come the river. Hell, I had someone hit their 1 outer the other day against me on the river. Caller in early position with 88, I had K8 in the BB, Flop was Kxx, raised from BB, called... hit my two pair on the river, of course he made trips. I really wish I didn't have quite so many of these stories at 1/2. Barely had any before, and I'm not (believe it or not) one to complain. Hell, I'm not complaining - I really do want to play these guys, just I'd rather they stopped sucking out on me!

So yeah, I'm just bitter at the moment. My poor bankroll /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I think $1 $2 full can be tough if you are not running well. Most pots are 2 or 3 handed and you often have to make a decent hand to get the dough. Also if you get cold-decked and suffer a load of beats it is hard to fight back. The classical situation where you only get action if you are about to suckout, whilst your flop bet with aces full meets with 4 folds. I have grown ever frustrated with $1 $2 full because of this.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, this.

I'm hoping it turns around because I'm not really enjoying myself at $1/2 at the moment and I really don't want to be at this level just because it's where the bonuses can be cleared. I want to be winning, and winning well!

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm hoping it turns around because I'm not really enjoying myself at $1/2 at the moment and I really don't want to be at this level just because it's where the bonuses can be
cleared. I want to be winning, and winning well!

[/ QUOTE ]


See my graph - I think we are soulmates! Know that I share in your misery.

[Guthrie]

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After 30K at 1/2 I'm down 250BB. I win the small pots and lose the big ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems very stretchy to consider this to be substantially due to variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hence my concern.

[adsman]

Before I moved back up to 1/2 full I searched around to get as much good advice as I could. Tiltaholic posted a fantastic thread on moving up to 1/2, (which you never followed up on!! lol), and I found a lot of other good advice as well.
Subsequently, when I made the move I kicked butt. The advice that helped me the most, without doubt, I mean nothing else even came close, was seat selection.

Specifically, you want the TAG's on your left so you can constantly steal their blinds and the button, and you want the loose callers on your right so you know you are going to get the odds to play your hand even if it is raised behind you.
I open 4 tables and datamine them for half an hour. I identufy the good ones and put myself on the waiting list. If a seat comes up that doesn't conform to the above criteria, (ie TAG on your right etc), I reject the seat and go back on the waiting list. This sounds like you could be waiting hours for a table. After putting myself on the waiting list the most I have ever had to wait using this method is ten minutes.

On the lower limits table and seat selection are not very important. You're almost always going to get a good game. Not so when you move up. Pick your tables carefully. Pick your seat with even more care.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Tiltaholic posted a fantastic thread on moving up to 1/2, (which you never followed up on!! lol

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm lazy...and basically the punchline is - "become a better player than the opposition". which would be a long post...

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Players reraised me with 24o and rivered out my flopped sets, top pairs lost to runner, runner two bottom pairs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect those things are not the problem.

[Pedigree]

[ QUOTE ]
Before I moved back up to 1/2 full I searched around to get as much good advice as I could. Tiltaholic posted a fantastic thread on moving up to 1/2, (which you never followed up on!! lol), and I found a lot of other good advice as well.
Subsequently, when I made the move I kicked butt. The advice that helped me the most, without doubt, I mean nothing else even came close, was seat selection.

Specifically, you want the TAG's on your left so you can constantly steal their blinds and the button, and you want the loose callers on your right so you know you are going to get the odds to play your hand even if it is raised behind you.
I open 4 tables and datamine them for half an hour. I identufy the good ones and put myself on the waiting list. If a seat comes up that doesn't conform to the above criteria, (ie TAG on your right etc), I reject the seat and go back on the waiting list. This sounds like you could be waiting hours for a table. After putting myself on the waiting list the most I have ever had to wait using this method is ten minutes.

On the lower limits table and seat selection are not very important. You're almost always going to get a good game. Not so when you move up. Pick your tables carefully. Pick your seat with even more care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there anything wrong with just looking at Party Poker and sorting the tables by average pot size and getting on the waiting list for the 3 highest?

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there anything wrong with just looking at Party Poker and sorting the tables by average pot size and getting on the waiting list for the 3 highest?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Unless you like to wait a long time to play and then join a table full of TAGS.

Usually theres at least 10 people on the waiting list. Bad players make these tables good. Also, bad players usually bust out the fastest. Everytime a bad player busts out, he's usually replaced by a TAG. By the time you get to the head of the wait list theres like 1 mediocre semi-fish playing about 30% of his hands.

You'll find much better tables using other methods than this.

Along the same lines. Don't you hate when you find an awesome table and over the course of 30 minutes or so, the fish leave and soon enough you're sitting at a table full of TAGS? I HATE that.

The 1/2 full ring is definately tough. 20% vip and a quite aggressive. I am with webster. The 2/4 is easier. I think this is mainly because of all bonuswhores who play 1/2.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
Before I moved back up to 1/2 full I searched around to get as much good advice as I could. Tiltaholic posted a fantastic thread on moving up to 1/2, (which you never followed up on!! lol), and I found a lot of other good advice as well.
Subsequently, when I made the move I kicked butt. The advice that helped me the most, without doubt, I mean nothing else even came close, was seat selection.

Specifically, you want the TAG's on your left so you can constantly steal their blinds and the button, and you want the loose callers on your right so you know you are going to get the odds to play your hand even if it is raised behind you.
I open 4 tables and datamine them for half an hour. I identufy the good ones and put myself on the waiting list. If a seat comes up that doesn't conform to the above criteria, (ie TAG on your right etc), I reject the seat and go back on the waiting list. This sounds like you could be waiting hours for a table. After putting myself on the waiting list the most I have ever had to wait using this method is ten minutes.



[/ QUOTE ]


You do realize that not everyone is playing on Party and on basically every other site out there your method will indeed involve hours of waiting.

Plus I question the skill of any player who relies on datamining this much to get a good win rate. And again how many sites other then Party allow datamining?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there anything wrong with just looking at Party Poker and sorting the tables by average pot size and getting on the waiting list for the 3 highest?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Unless you like to wait a long time to play and then join a table full of TAGS.

Usually theres at least 10 people on the waiting list. Bad players make these tables good. Also, bad players usually bust out the fastest. Everytime a bad player busts out, he's usually replaced by a TAG. By the time you get to the head of the wait list theres like 1 mediocre semi-fish playing about 30% of his hands.

You'll find much better tables using other methods than this.

Along the same lines. Don't you hate when you find an awesome table and over the course of 30 minutes or so, the fish leave and soon enough you're sitting at a table full of TAGS? I HATE that.

[/ QUOTE ]

So my observations about finding loose passive tables only to have them turn tight are correct - the fish are replaced by sharks /images/graemlins/frown.gif. I really HATE that.

I've only played about 1K hands at $1/2, but it seems to me that seat selection is a tough thing to do. Turnover really seems to be a problem. After 40 hands there may only be 2 or 3 players that I've played more than 20 hands against. It seems like a lot of trouble jumping tables every 25 or 30 hands, not to mention the cost of posting blinds. Also, I've decided that I want to be able to beat whatever type of game I find - if that's possible. Sure changing games might help the bankroll, but to become a better player I think it helps to play better players.

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there anything wrong with just looking at Party Poker and sorting the tables by average pot size and getting on the waiting list for the 3 highest?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Unless you like to wait a long time to play and then join a table full of TAGS.

Usually theres at least 10 people on the waiting list. Bad players make these tables good. Also, bad players usually bust out the fastest. Everytime a bad player busts out, he's usually replaced by a TAG. By the time you get to the head of the wait list theres like 1 mediocre semi-fish playing about 30% of his hands.

You'll find much better tables using other methods than this.

Along the same lines. Don't you hate when you find an awesome table and over the course of 30 minutes or so, the fish leave and soon enough you're sitting at a table full of TAGS? I HATE that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instead, learn to play HUSH, sit at an empty table, and let the fish come to you. You'll be surprised at how good this works.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]


You do realize that not everyone is playing on Party and on basically every other site out there your method will indeed involve hours of waiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I say party in my post? I play on several sites, I can do this on most. Some sites that I can do it on, (like absolute) I don't as there's only a few tables.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus I question the skill of any player who relies on datamining this much to get a good win rate. And again how many sites other then Party allow datamining?

[/ QUOTE ]

30 minutes of datamining is nothing. I know players who datamine 24/7. If you have pokertracker and don't take the time to do this, then you're wasting a valuable resource. The other way to do it of course is Wookies method. This works fine for some, (me included), but I don't recommend it for someone who is having problems beating 1/2.

By the way, I consider seat selection much more important than table selection.
As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I consider seat selection much more important than table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, you gotta just ignore that [censored].

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, you gotta just ignore that [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, Dan. I don't even know why I answered that.

[deception5]

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As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size.... I had the same rate at 2/4 over 10k hands. You are almost certainly beating the game - probably for a good rate - but 6BB/100 is unlikely to last over 30-50k hands.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]


Where did I say party in my post? I play on several sites, I can do this on most. Some sites that I can do it on, (like absolute) I don't as there's only a few tables.

[/ QUOTE ]


It was implied becuase alot of the other sites dont have a combination of ability to datamine and a plethora of 1/2 tables that you have the ability to just wait around for a specific seat.


[ QUOTE ]

As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how does this disprove my argument that people who use datamining as a crutch to support large win rates might not be as skilled at poker as their numbers suggest?

You got a big penis, drive a nice sports car, have a swimsuit model girlfriend, and a job that pays 200k+ a year too I bet.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how does this disprove my argument that people who use datamining as a crutch to support large win rates might not be as skilled at poker as their numbers suggest?

You got a big penis, drive a nice sports car, have a swimsuit model girlfriend, and a job that pays 200k+ a year too I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm guys, we are talking about beating 1/2 here. Anyone that is not retarded can do that, so I think we can save the discussions of "skill".

Marat,
I've recently moved to Party 1/2 (within last 10 days), and have logged over 3k hands there while 3-4 tabling. The two levels play very differently IMO. 1/2 is still beatable. I'm slightly ahead after 3k hands and should be way ahead but I've missed tons of monster draws thusfar.

It will take a while to get used to $28 pots instead of $14 pots or whatever, but all the principles are the same. Once you forget that sometimes you'll spend $8 just to see the river, I think you will play a lot better.

The major differences I've noticed (as opposed to .5/1) are

1) More 3-betting and capping PF.
2) Less likely to get into pot cheap with suited aces.
In other words, I made a killing of nut flushes at .5/1 and don't seem to get to play A3suited as much anymore b/c of PF raising.
3) Much more flop check-raising. This is either somebody protecting top pair, or someone going for a free river card. Don't be intimidated.

How many tables do you play? When I made the transition I was playing 3 tables of 1/2 and 2 tables of .5/1 to lessen the variance. Try to ease into the new level. If you play 4-tables, then try 3/1 or 2/2. I thought this would be confusing playing intra-level, but it really wasn't. Within a week I was (am) 4-tabling strictly 1/2 now.

Good luck. Hope to see you at my table.

[beaster]

Dudes, I feel your pain. I'm at 31k hands with a 1BB/100 winrate, and I'm also at the bottom of a 150BB slide. Yeah so bonuses help soften the bankroll blow. But bonuses dont do much for my desire to be a winning player.

After being at ~2BB/100 at 20k hands, I'm glad I put more time into 1/2. Here's what I've been doing to try and get better:

-- Gain perspective. Look at graphs from your current level or other levels that you beat. Have you gone through this before? Did you come back to "beat" the level? Losing can take its toll on you mentally. When you feel beat down, you're more likely to make desparate/wrong plays -- hoping that you too can pull a longshot draw out of your arse.

-- Take the grunch/wookie challege. Open up a hand post, close it up by clicking on 'threaded' (so you can't see other responses), read it and respond. Think about all streets and all of the fundamentals that come into play at each round. Too often in the heat of battle at the table you're rushing to make a decision. Read hand posts and think through them at your own pace, then respond. Take your time to analyze the hand -- as the fundamentals are used over and over, they will begin popping into your mind more frequently when you have to make quicker decisions (a side-effect of multi-tabling).

-- Play tighter. Quit calling small pocket pairs and A2s through A8s in middle position.

-- Play straight up. With marginal hands, unless you are positive you have your opponent beat, don't push. Many times I thought I could push someone out of a pot by being aggressive with a ragged board. For example, the board comes Q92 and I'm holding 88, early, heads up. I usually get shown top or middle pair.

-- Respect position. Understand when you are advantaged and disadvantaged. If you are early and the flop misses you, count your pot odds (along with guesstimating your implied) and call/fold accordingly. Don't get carried away in late position if your previous opponents have checked to you and you have a marginal hand.

After 30k hands, I now realize crafty play is not well rewarded. Focus on correct play.

[adsman]

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Where did I say party in my post? I play on several sites, I can do this on most. Some sites that I can do it on, (like absolute) I don't as there's only a few tables.

[/ QUOTE ]


It was implied becuase alot of the other sites dont have a combination of ability to datamine and a plethora of 1/2 tables that you have the ability to just wait around for a specific seat.


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As for questioning my skill, my win rate at 1/2 was over 6BB/100 hands. Question away.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how does this disprove my argument that people who use datamining as a crutch to support large win rates might not be as skilled at poker as their numbers suggest?

You got a big penis, drive a nice sports car, have a swimsuit model girlfriend, and a job that pays 200k+ a year too I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll put this as nicely as I can.

You're a dickhead, mate.

[kiemo]

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Umm guys, we are talking about beating 1/2 here. Anyone that is not retarded can do that, so I think we can save the discussions of "skill".

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is 100% wrong and alot of posts in this thread example it.

1/2 might be a micro limit online and for good-expert players it might be very easy to beat, but it still requires some amount of poker knowlege - i.e. skill, to be a long term winner at it. You cant just nut peddle your way to a 3bb/100 winrate like you can at the lower limits.

Using position, player reads, table selection, seat selection, stealing blinds, defending blinds, and putting players on ranges, are skills that start becoming important at 1/2. You know about skills at .5/1 and lower but you simply dont use them alot becuase you can crush those limits without these skills. At 1/2 I dont think this is the case.

[Fryguy]

I had a similar thing happen to me. I stuck it out, and proceeded to fly through 1/2 and jump right into 2/4 and 3/6 games, which aren't harder, you just make more money.

Get a sufficient bankroll and stick it out.

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Hi all,

I'm playing at $0.5/1 level and I winning 3.1BB/100 hands (after 16000 hands).Now I tried move to $1/2 level, where I was destroyed. Back to $0.5/1, recovered losses, move to $1/2 and situation repeated. Players reraised me with 24o and rivered out my flopped sets, top pairs lost to runner, runner two bottom pairs, etc.

My question is:

Is level $1/2 that much different from $0.5/1 level??? I never saw that much maniacs at $0.5/1 as at $1/2! When I raise and reraise preflop I have least four callers.When I bet the flop and I don't have NUTS, I am death.

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Umm guys, we are talking about beating 1/2 here. Anyone that is not retarded can do that, so I think we can save the discussions of "skill".

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is 100% wrong and alot of posts in this thread example it.

1/2 might be a micro limit online and for good-expert players it might be very easy to beat, but it still requires some amount of poker knowlege - i.e. skill, to be a long term winner at it. You cant just nut peddle your way to a 3bb/100 winrate like you can at the lower limits.

Using position, player reads, table selection, seat selection, stealing blinds, defending blinds, and putting players on ranges, are skills that start becoming important at 1/2. You know about skills at .5/1 and lower but you simply dont use them alot becuase you can crush those limits without these skills. At 1/2 I dont think this is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we have a different definition of "skill". I'm just tired of all these posts by people that think they're the greatest player ever b/c they have a decent winrate at 1/2.

[kiemo]

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I'll put this as nicely as I can.

You're a dickhead, mate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah and my winrate is only 1.7 bb/100 at 1/2, so I cant even fall back on that like you can.

And I must ask this now since I forgot before.

You datamine to determine the best table and the best seat and refuse to sit down until you get the exact spot you want.

And now you got the perfect seat. Bad player or two to left, good players to right. perfect position. Except 3 hands into the table, the bad players leave, replaced by other players you have no datamined hands (OMG UNKNOWN PLAYER - RUN FOR THE HILLS). What now? leave the table to find another perfect seat.

And what happens if you sit a table you so determinely datamined, so all the little PokerWhatever numbers show up for you and you can easily watch porn instead of the table and still have reads on the players, and the table turns over quickly and now you have no information whatsoever? Bet you leave that table immediately, because your winrate might dip a little below 6bb/100 if you suddenly find yourself playing against a bunch of unknowns.

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The absolute dollar amount that I had lost was psychologically painful. Turns out that in terms of the actual number of BBs, my downswing at 1/2 was similar to other downswings that I've gone through in .50/1.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely correct for most people I think. Did you try mixing in a couple .5/1 tables while playing a couple 1/2 tables? Forget about the money you are spending and look at the bets.

I did this and after a while of knowing that the big bet at .5/1 was "nothing" compared to 1/2, I started relaxing and I think it sort of began to go the other way where I'd play a hand at 1/2 and "forget" that it was the "higher level" and just play the damn hand.

I've only logged a few thousand hands at 1/2 but I think I'm almost over this. It does take some getting used to when you are 4-tabling and down 5 BB's at each table and look at your BR and it's down $40! lol.

The good news is that the transition from 2/4 to 3/6 is only a 50% increase. And 3/6 to 4/8 is only 33%.

I'm not looking forward to jumpiing up to 2/4 and having to get used to bigger pots again though.

Good luck.

[ QUOTE ]
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I'll put this as nicely as I can.

You're a dickhead, mate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah and my winrate is only 1.7 bb/100 at 1/2, so I cant even fall back on that like you can.

And I must ask this now since I forgot before.

You datamine to determine the best table and the best seat and refuse to sit down until you get the exact spot you want.

And now you got the perfect seat. Bad player or two to left, good players to right. perfect position. Except 3 hands into the table, the bad players leave, replaced by other players you have no datamined hands (OMG UNKNOWN PLAYER - RUN FOR THE HILLS). What now? leave the table to find another perfect seat.

And what happens if you sit a table you so determinely datamined, so all the little PokerWhatever numbers show up for you and you can easily watch porn instead of the table and still have reads on the players, and the table turns over quickly and now you have no information whatsoever? Bet you leave that table immediately, because your winrate might dip a little below 6bb/100 if you suddenly find yourself playing against a bunch of unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adsman took the time to write a nice post about how he table selects. For some reason you have a huge chip on your shoulder about this and wrote the following:

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You do realize that not everyone is playing on Party and on basically every other site out there your method will indeed involve hours of waiting.

Plus I question the skill of any player who relies on datamining this much to get a good win rate. And again how many sites other then Party allow datamining?

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Seriously WTF man? If you are not able to datamine at the site you play, that is fine, some of the site I play on I can't either. But if you can it's going to improve the amount of $$$ you make if you use it correctly.

But what I really don't understand is why you felt the need to attack Adsman's "skill", just b/c he chooses to datamine and you don't.

FWIW, I play at 1/2 on Party and I don't do extensive datamining, but I do "head for the hills" if the table gets bad. Table selection is EXTREMELY important if you want to beat the games for a good winrates. The rake is brutal at 1/2 (like 3BB/100) so how do you think you beat the game for an additional 3BB/100, by outplaying other good players? No, by finding the worst players you can and taking advantage of the gigantic mistakes that they make.

[ QUOTE ]

On the lower limits table and seat selection are not very important.

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lol. 1/2 IS the lower limit. I think you are leaning on this crutch too much. Just sit down and identify the TAG's and fish and play accordingly.

[numeri]

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I think you are leaning on this crutch too much. Just sit down and identify the TAG's and fish and play accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]
True and false.

While it is good to learn how to play against certain opponents, (I made a similar argument in a recent post) it is also good to make the best of your current situation.

If I know that a certain player is tight, why should I not try and sit to his right? If I see a very loose and passive player I've played against before, why shouldn't I sit to his left?

As I stated in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3800953&page=0&vc=1) in an earlier thread of yours, if you want to use the tool use it. If you don't, don't - but don't judge someone who does.

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-- Play tighter. Quit calling small pocket pairs and A2s through A8s in middle position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold turkey? Bad idea... How often do you get Axs and small pocket pairs in MP anyhow??? Can't be much but I'll check when I get back to PT. Dropping a SB every once in awhile here can lead to dragging nice pots your way. And if you're getting some table cred with solid raises, raising first in can bring good things as well.

Unless you have solid knowledge (Damn good reads), that you'll be getting raised or three bet by the time it gets back to you, these can be long term +EV spots.

~

[kiemo]

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But what I really don't understand is why you felt the need to attack Adsman's "skill", just b/c he chooses to datamine and you don't.


[/ QUOTE ]


Where did I attack? I stated an opinion that I think anyone who has to datamine a table before they are willing to sit down and play is using a crutch and may not be as skillfull as they think becuase of this crutch.

How truly good is a player when they have to rely on external software to make reads for them? What happens to the players skill when that software is taken away from them? What if I have a friend stand beside me and tell me every play to make, and I win alot of money - does that make me a good player?

I have nothing against Adsmans advice, I just dont think its a very good solution when you are trying to move up from .5/1 to 1/2, becuase it gets you into bad habits of not paying attention becuase an external program is doing alot of the work for you - which I think is a crutch. We can disagree and if its one goal to simply make as much money as possible without gaining knowledge - then its definitely a great idea.

And Adsman is the one who had to bring out his penis and the measuring stick, not me - hell I already posted how poor I am doing at 1/2 earlier in the thread.

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Where did I attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

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And Adsman is the one who had to bring out his penis and the measuring stick

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Yeah, you're right, I see no attacks here. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[kiemo]

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Where did I attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

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And Adsman is the one who had to bring out his penis and the measuring stick

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Yeah, you're right, I see no attacks here. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well thats kinda after the fact.

But seriously, maybe it came across like an attack. But it wasnt meant to.

Adsman might be, and probably is a better player then me and I have struggled, like others in this thread, with 1/2 after crushing .5/1 and I truly think the answer to learning to beat this level isnt 'just let PT and other software find you perfect tables/seats and only play there'.

And I am not saying dont use these tools, just dont rely on them.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But what I really don't understand is why you felt the need to attack Adsman's "skill", just b/c he chooses to datamine and you don't.


[/ QUOTE ]


Where did I attack? I stated an opinion that I think anyone who has to datamine a table before they are willing to sit down and play is using a crutch and may not be as skillfull as they think becuase of this crutch.

How truly good is a player when they have to rely on external software to make reads for them? What happens to the players skill when that software is taken away from them? What if I have a friend stand beside me and tell me every play to make, and I win alot of money - does that make me a good player?

I have nothing against Adsmans advice, I just dont think its a very good solution when you are trying to move up from .5/1 to 1/2, becuase it gets you into bad habits of not paying attention becuase an external program is doing alot of the work for you - which I think is a crutch. We can disagree and if its one goal to simply make as much money as possible without gaining knowledge - then its definitely a great idea.

And Adsman is the one who had to bring out his penis and the measuring stick, not me - hell I already posted how poor I am doing at 1/2 earlier in the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey kiemo sorry I really did not mean to be so argumentative. But I do have to say that all Adsman said was that he use PT for table selection. I honestly don't see how this is a crutch. All it allows you to do is find out quicker if the table has enough bad players to make it worth playing at. I do agree that PT can become a crutch if you use it too much and use it instead of paying attention and making reads, but for table selection purposes I don't see at all how it could harm your progress as a poker player.

[ QUOTE ]
Adsman might be, and probably is a better player then me and I have struggled, like others in this thread, with 1/2 after crushing .5/1 and I truly think the answer to learning to beat this level isnt 'just let PT and other software find you perfect tables/seats and only play there'.

And I am not saying dont use these tools, just dont rely on them.

[/ QUOTE ]
And now in your defense, you're right that too many people use PT to replace their own eyeballs and brain. (If I never see another thread lamenting "Party's so tight now, I can't find a table with a VPIP over 35" it won't be soon enough.)

I can figure out who's loose, and whether a table's worth sitting in at, within a couple of orbits. It's not that hard, and it allows me to spend the extra time doing the hard part: trying to get a freakin' seat in the right spot. Visual reconnaissance also gives me a look at what's being raised, donk-bet and shown down, for a more complete read.

But others may use PT/PAHUD for efficiency while they play elsewhere, which maximizes their poker time - and it also will give them an "instant read" when they come across a player again.

[Guruman]

adsman is a solid player, and he was just offering you advice on how to put yourself in a position to be successful at that level. Make no mistake, his game will not fall apart if a wierd stats guy sits in on his left 30 min in. Seat selection tends to be about preflop decisions, and Ads can outplay a brutha postflop when the time comes.

I'd suggest a little respect.

Also, fwiw I personally utilize the method that wookie gave earlier: learn to play heads up and start your own tables on the shorthanded side.

All the 70 vpip guys are at the 6max tables anyway. playing 1/2 full ring is like watching paint dry. playing 1/2 six is like riding the twisties on the ol motorcycle.

gl.

[jaxUp]

riding the twisties? Now, I am definitely not "with it" but this seems pretty obscure to me.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
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I'll put this as nicely as I can.

You're a [censored], mate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah and my winrate is only 1.7 bb/100 at 1/2, so I cant even fall back on that like you can.

And I must ask this now since I forgot before.

You datamine to determine the best table and the best seat and refuse to sit down until you get the exact spot you want.

And now you got the perfect seat. Bad player or two to left, good players to right. perfect position. Except 3 hands into the table, the bad players leave, replaced by other players you have no datamined hands (OMG UNKNOWN PLAYER - RUN FOR THE HILLS). What now? leave the table to find another perfect seat.

And what happens if you sit a table you so determinely datamined, so all the little PokerWhatever numbers show up for you and you can easily watch porn instead of the table and still have reads on the players, and the table turns over quickly and now you have no information whatsoever? Bet you leave that table immediately, because your winrate might dip a little below 6bb/100 if you suddenly find yourself playing against a bunch of unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I had a good sleep and I wakeup and find that this kept going. Now I have to admit that last night when I wrote the above I was very tired and just couldn't be bothered defending myself when I honestly saw no reason to defend. I'm feeling nicer now so I'll give it a go.

First of all to pokertracker. We don't play live. We don't have the advantages of tells and people skills to utilise. We don't play against the same players and see the same faces and get to know how they play and how to take advantage of them. At these limits especially we're up against complete unknowns a good proportion of the time. Pokertracker goes a little way to addressing these problems.
Tommy Angelo posted a thread a month ago in the high stakes forum where the entire post consisted of him sitting down at a table, unloading his chips, and from the information he received getting up and leaving as the table conditions weren't right. End of session. He got bagged for it by a lot of people as well.
I try and find 3 bad players on a full table. If I can't, I will go with two. I try and put myself in a position where I won't be hammered by TAG's. Those are my starting requirements. Sometimes I sit down and I beat up the TAG's, not the bad players. Sometimes the bad players beat up on me. But if I'm feeling good and playing well I stay at the table. Those are my only requirements to keep playing at a table. If I'm feeling good and playing well. After that I don't really give a crap who sits down. I just want to get off to a good start if possible.
And I don't have any problems with unknowns sitting down due to the fact that I never multitable. Ever. If you don't believe me do a search of my posts. I've said it often. It doesn't work for me. Because I like to watch. I like to observe. And I love it when I make a play and it comes off based on what I've seen. I don't watch porn. I find it very boring. The only thing that I do whilst playing, (to my detriment but I'm unable to stop), is surf 2+2.

I originally posted my thread to state what helped me the most when I moved up. There are many other things that are important and I alluded to them in my original post. There are many other skills and ideas that helped me. But seat selection and table selection at that point in time in my poker playing career helped me the most.
You chose to question my poker ability. You chose to ask me to pull my [censored] out of my pants. Unfortuantely I fell for your little trap due to being absolutely exhausted and you tried to take full advantage. I thank the posters who stood up for me on this thread, it was really nice to see.

By the way, the reason that I was so tired last night is due to the fact that I had to drive a 400km round trip in the Italian Alps to pick up my new Alfa Romeo sports car.
Ah ha ha ha.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]

All the 70 vpip guys are at the 6max tables anyway. playing 1/2 full ring is like watching paint dry.

[/ QUOTE ]

not when you play ten tables at once, my friend

I'm just over 2bb/100 in 20k hands at party 1/2. Excitedly once my BR grew to $1200 i moved up to party 2/4...

I found there wasn't a little more agression but a _LOT_ more agression. Multiple players at a table 4 betting preflop and flop with just rediculous hands.

If you can learn to play against that I can see huge profit potential as people are just throwing huge chunks of money into the pot. it's not uncommon to see 90%+ VPIPers. Unfortunetly that type of random play just completely demolished me and I've since moved back down until I gain enough knowledge to play correctly against them.

[ QUOTE ]

Instead, learn to play HUSH, sit at an empty table, and let the fish come to you. You'll be surprised at how good this works.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so great advice, it's unbelievable. What newbie wants to queue up? Exactly!

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just over 2bb/100 in 20k hands at party 1/2. Excitedly once my BR grew to $1200 i moved up to party 2/4...

I found there wasn't a little more agression but a _LOT_ more agression. Multiple players at a table 4 betting preflop and flop with just rediculous hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you ran into a 2+2 table. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

One of the problems with Party is that for some weird reason they don't have 6-max tables at 2/4. This means many LAGs who would be playing 6-max (and those who would be taking their money) are forced to play full ring. (Others just move to Stars or UB.)

[pistol78]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tiltaholic posted a fantastic thread on moving up to 1/2, (which you never followed up on!! lol

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm lazy...and basically the punchline is - "become a better player than the opposition". which would be a long post...

[/ QUOTE ]


Link?

[JoshNjuice]

I don't have much to add, but this post just made my day. I've been having trouble with this same thing (12K hands for 2.86 BB/100 at $.5/1, doing poorly every time I take a shot at $1/2) lately and it's been very discouraging.

This post has given me some good ideas and some much needed encouragement. I typically 4-table and I really like the suggestion to try 2 $.5/1 and 2 $1/2 tables. I think that will help make my transition easier and keep my confidence somewhat intact.

Thanks everyone for your input and thanks OP for starting the thread.

JoshNjuice

[tiltaholic]

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Tiltaholic posted a fantastic thread on moving up to 1/2, (which you never followed up on!! lol

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm lazy...and basically the punchline is - "become a better player than the opposition". which would be a long post...

[/ QUOTE ]


Link?

[/ QUOTE ]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=micro&Number=3025093&fpar t=&PHPSESSID=)

[Marat]

Thank you a lot to all!!