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View Full Version : $525: Reraising or Folding with ATo?


bruce
11-08-2005, 04:07 PM
$525 turbo on Stars. I had never played in a $500 SNG before. I decided to play for two reasons, Zee Justin was playing and since he is
considered to be one of the best I'd like to play against him and watch him in action. Secondly, based on my play, I certainly thought I could compete against these guys if not beat them.

Any way the hand in question:

Seat 1 1295 BB
Seat 2 1135
Seat 3 1875
Seat 4 2060
Seat 5 1050
Seat 6 2765
Seat 8 (Me) 1540 Button
Seat 9 1780 SB

Blinds are 100/200 and I have the button.

Seat 2 is first to act and open pushes to 1135. All fold
to me on the button with ATo. I really don't have any good
reads. I have never played with anyone before. Play for
a turbo seems to be overly tight.

What is my best play?

Results to follow. Commentary apprciated.

Bruce

citanul
11-08-2005, 04:09 PM
i would rather push every hand that i was first to act (excluding utg and utg+1 hands, maybe some utg+2) for the rest of the tournament, than call or overpush here.

which seat is z? is it relevant to the hand or has he folded?

what is the normal stakes at which you play?

c

bigt439
11-08-2005, 04:13 PM
This is definitley a fold.

Unless you are playing primarily for fun I would avoid ZeeJustin if I could. I don't think playing in a sng with him would teach you much anyways.

gildwulf
11-08-2005, 04:18 PM
This is a fold and also you might want to work on your game selection, hehe /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

bennies
11-08-2005, 04:44 PM
Naa, AJ maaaaaaaybe but no, I'd fold before I shat my pants. AQ I'd call (shatting abundantly while watching THOSE STUPID SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW ROLLING CARDS ON STARS, IM GOING CRAZY WAITING FOR THOSE RIVERSALKHGAIHGAKVBALKH

bruce
11-08-2005, 04:57 PM
Z was not involved in this hand.

I normally play $100 and $200 SNG's.

Bruce

bruce
11-08-2005, 08:38 PM
Why is folding correct? I'm not sure if I necessarily agree
with you. This was a turbo tournament. The blinds were about to increase. Does the villian really need to have a big hand to push with UTG? AT is certainly not a premium hand, even by any stretch of the imagination, but against the range of hands I think he is willing to push with I believe I come out ahead. If I do reraise and push what are the chances of either one of the blinds finding a hand?
From my perspective I don't think this is so black and white.

As far as avoiding a SNG because of one player, I think that's a bunch of hogwash. He might be a great player, I
have no idea and I certainly didn't find out last night, but there still are seven other players besides Zee.

Bruce

gildwulf
11-08-2005, 08:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why is folding correct? I'm not sure if I necessarily agree
with you. This was a turbo tournament. The blinds were about to increase. Does the villian really need to have a big hand to push with UTG? AT is certainly not a premium hand, even by any stretch of the imagination, but against the range of hands I think he is willing to push with I believe I come out ahead. If I do reraise and push what are the chances of either one of the blinds finding a hand?
From my perspective I don't think this is so black and white.

As far as avoiding a SNG because of one player, I think that's a bunch of hogwash. He might be a great player, I
have no idea and I certainly didn't find out last night, but there still are seven other players besides Zee.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were taking a shot at a higher limit (and maybe not entirely comfortable with the limit yet) would you want to play on the bubble against one of the top 3 SNG players out there or a random player?

bawcerelli
11-08-2005, 08:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is folding correct? I'm not sure if I necessarily agree
with you. This was a turbo tournament. The blinds were about to increase. Does the villian really need to have a big hand to push with UTG? AT is certainly not a premium hand, even by any stretch of the imagination, but against the range of hands I think he is willing to push with I believe I come out ahead. If I do reraise and push what are the chances of either one of the blinds finding a hand?
From my perspective I don't think this is so black and white.

As far as avoiding a SNG because of one player, I think that's a bunch of hogwash. He might be a great player, I
have no idea and I certainly didn't find out last night, but there still are seven other players besides Zee.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were taking a shot at a higher limit (and maybe not entirely comfortable with the limit yet) would you want to play on the bubble against one of the top 3 SNG players out there or a random player?

[/ QUOTE ]

who would you say are the other two? giga. and?

gildwulf
11-08-2005, 08:52 PM
I'd rather not offend anyone:)

pineapple888
11-08-2005, 08:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why is folding correct? I'm not sure if I necessarily agree
with you. This was a turbo tournament. The blinds were about to increase. Does the villian really need to have a big hand to push with UTG? AT is certainly not a premium hand, even by any stretch of the imagination, but against the range of hands I think he is willing to push with I believe I come out ahead. If I do reraise and push what are the chances of either one of the blinds finding a hand?
From my perspective I don't think this is so black and white.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think you're *ahead* of the range of an 8-handed UTG raise here at a tight $500 table, despite the responses you've gotten from respected posters? If so, there's nothing more for anyone to say.

[ QUOTE ]

As far as avoiding a SNG because of one player, I think that's a bunch of hogwash. He might be a great player, I
have no idea and I certainly didn't find out last night, but there still are seven other players besides Zee.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

But only three finish ITM. Zee takes one of those slots 40% of the time. How do you like your chances now?

HoldingFolding
11-08-2005, 09:20 PM
I haven't played turbos, but surely you've played enough 215s to know that nobody is pushing from UTG 8 handed with anything you want to see (unless maybe it's 77/88/99 for a coin flip) and villain just isn't that shortstacked yet, he's far more likely to push with crud from the SB in two hands.

jeffraider
11-08-2005, 10:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]

who would you say are the other two? giga. and?

[/ QUOTE ]

The JEFFSTER. I normally don't play $500s because it's too easy to beat good players. I like challenging myself against the worst players in the world instead.

bruce
11-08-2005, 10:30 PM
I push reraised and both blinds folded. UTG had Q9s and Ace
high was the best hand.

I respectfully disagree that this an automatic fold. At this
level of play I truely believed that there was a high likelyhood that UTG was making a move. I know if I were him
I would be pushing with plenty of suboptimal hands. A friend of mine watching my play thought I had lost my mind, but I feel like my play was very reasonable.

I may also be slightly biased from previous tournaments. I
open pushed on the bubble in a big live MTT at the Commerce
with 28 players left and 27 being played and I was put all
in and eliminated by AT.

I did, by the way, win the event. I felt at the time that
this was going to be the key hand for me. I was relatively
shortstacked and I needed to double up and this, although risky, seemed liked an opportunity for me to get chips where
I might very well be the favorite.

Perhaps I'm results oriented, but better lucky maybe, than good.

Bruce

bruce
11-08-2005, 10:39 PM
A random player theoretically finishes ITM 30% of the time.

Bruce

11-08-2005, 10:42 PM
Not on 'Stars..

HoldingFolding
11-08-2005, 11:36 PM
Wow, I sit corrected; never has my flabber been so gasted.

bigt439
11-09-2005, 12:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I push reraised and both blinds folded. UTG had Q9s and Ace
high was the best hand.

I respectfully disagree that this an automatic fold. At this
level of play I truely believed that there was a high likelyhood that UTG was making a move. I know if I were him
I would be pushing with plenty of suboptimal hands. A friend of mine watching my play thought I had lost my mind, but I feel like my play was very reasonable.

I may also be slightly biased from previous tournaments. I
open pushed on the bubble in a big live MTT at the Commerce
with 28 players left and 27 being played and I was put all
in and eliminated by AT.

I did, by the way, win the event. I felt at the time that
this was going to be the key hand for me. I was relatively
shortstacked and I needed to double up and this, although risky, seemed liked an opportunity for me to get chips where
I might very well be the favorite.

Perhaps I'm results oriented, but better lucky maybe, than good.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you know utg to be a horrible horrible player (which he ends up being), this is not a call. Your call is quite bad, his push is horrendous.

EDIT: Okay, I look like a jackass, but I'm actually going to leave my original reply in there and follow it up by saying it is quite wrong. With reasonable ranges this guys UTG push is actually +EV... ? Surprised the hell out of me. Obviously. So if this guy is pushing a fair amount (and it does have to be a pretty decent-sized range, but not crazy), this can actually become a call. Wow. Very surprised, and I think alot of people will be too.

bawcerelli
11-09-2005, 12:20 AM
given that the blinds are about to go up to 200/400, i don't think the push or call are as bad as everyone seems to think.

cha59
11-09-2005, 12:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push reraised and both blinds folded. UTG had Q9s and Ace
high was the best hand.

I respectfully disagree that this an automatic fold. At this
level of play I truely believed that there was a high likelyhood that UTG was making a move. I know if I were him
I would be pushing with plenty of suboptimal hands. A friend of mine watching my play thought I had lost my mind, but I feel like my play was very reasonable.

I may also be slightly biased from previous tournaments. I
open pushed on the bubble in a big live MTT at the Commerce
with 28 players left and 27 being played and I was put all
in and eliminated by AT.

I did, by the way, win the event. I felt at the time that
this was going to be the key hand for me. I was relatively
shortstacked and I needed to double up and this, although risky, seemed liked an opportunity for me to get chips where
I might very well be the favorite.

Perhaps I'm results oriented, but better lucky maybe, than good.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you know utg to be a horrible horrible player (which he ends up being), this is not a call. Your call is quite bad, his push is horrendous.

EDIT: Okay, I look like a jackass, but I'm actually going to leave my original reply in there and follow it up by saying it is quite wrong. With reasonable ranges this guys UTG push is actually +EV... ? Surprised the hell out of me. Obviously. So if this guy is pushing a fair amount (and it does have to be a pretty decent-sized range, but not crazy), this can actually become a call. Wow. Very surprised, and I think alot of people will be too.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you run this through SNGPT it really depends a lot on what UTG's range is. At 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs - calling becomes positive 0.7%.

The other thing you have to be concerned about if you push is what if the one of the blinds wakes up with a hand?

UTG probably figured with the table so tight he might get some respect pushing from that position. Also with the blinds going up he felt like he needed to move sooner rather than later.

NH & GG

bruce
11-09-2005, 01:18 AM
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that villian's UTG push is +EV? Or is my repush +EV? Are you running hand ranges
through a program?

Secondly, why do you say UTG is a horrible player? He's
shortstacked and the blinds are soon to go up. How can
pushing be so bad at a "tight" table regardless of what your two cards are?

Retrospectively I don't think anyone played the hand poorly.
UTG had the right of first vigorish. He had a halfway decent hand and pushed. I was relatively shortstacked
and I suspected he was making a play at the pot.

Would I make this play at a $30 table, I don't know? But
with this being a $500 table, I felt like I was able to make a better read and act accordingly.

Thanks for the responses.

Bruce

bawcerelli
11-09-2005, 02:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
$525 turbo on Stars.

I'm a bit confused. Are you running hand ranges
through a program?

[/ QUOTE ]

tell me you're kidding.

pineapple888
11-09-2005, 03:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A random player theoretically finishes ITM 30% of the time.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

In practice, significantly less than 30% of the time. That's why good players make money, even with the vig.

But whatever. You obviously have no real interest in anyone's feedback.

This is really just a brag post of how you made a "great" (actually bad) call of a "great" (actually bad) push.

11-09-2005, 03:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
When you run this through SNGPT it really depends a lot on what UTG's range is. At 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs - calling becomes positive 0.7%.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see UTG having that wide of a range.

bigt439
11-09-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A random player theoretically finishes ITM 30% of the time.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

In practice, significantly less than 30% of the time. That's why good players make money, even with the vig.

But whatever. You obviously have no real interest in anyone's feedback.

This is really just a brag post of how you made a "great" (actually bad) call of a "great" (actually bad) push.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't think Bruce made this call for the right reasons (no offence but most of Bruce's posts indicate a lack of understanding of some important sng concepts), I think you (pineapple) should read my latest post explaining how both plays are actually quite defendable. It wasn't my first instinct either.

tewall
11-09-2005, 06:30 PM
I thought this result was interesting, so set about verifying it myself, and I came up with the same answer regarding Q9 suited. It appears to me to be definately +EV, regardless of what assumptions one makes about the strength of hand one would call with.

Regarding calling with ATo it looks to me like it is a -EV call if one assumes the all-in guy has a better hand than Q9 suited. However, if one assumes the all-in guy would move in with a hand as bad as Q9 suited, then the call becomes +EV.