cbet this flop?

[schwza]

very early in empire $100. no reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1140)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1285)
CO (t660)
Hero (t975)
SB (t970)
BB (t1045)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t985)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t60.

Flop: (t187.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero?

ya I c-bet this.. even better that he called your raise after just initially calling, instead of you making the initial raise and him calling.. he looks even weaker this way.

[JeanieJ]

I don't know... I think I'm checking here. I don't really want to make a follow up bet in a pot so small.

[ QUOTE ]
very early in empire $100. no reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1140)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1285)
CO (t660)
Hero (t975)
SB (t970)
BB (t1045)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t985)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t60.

Flop: (t187.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he probably hit that flop. I would check and if he checks again on fourth street I'd fire a continuation bet a card late.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he probably hit that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
On what basis? Why can't he have 22-66, 99-TT?

[Sam T.]

Yes, but I like your thinking. Let me see if I see where you're going with this.

If you bet and he comes over the top, you're on a decision for a good portion of your chips. Yuck. And if he calls, there are a lot of turn cards that are bad news. Keep the pot small and playing the turn gets much easier. See if you can turn a heart, an A or K, and let position work for you.

If a heart comes, you have the monster draw, and have some interesting options on the turn. He bets, you raise big/push with two overs and a nut flush draw. If an A or K comes, you are probably good, you can bet/raise with some confidence. (Maybe he's limping with AQ, but probably not.)

I don't know if this made sense. It's usually an auto bet for me, but this is an interesting question.

P.S. Would you consider checking behind without the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

other than him posting this hand for a reason, what would make you think he hit the flop? One face card and no made straight or flush draws against one limper.. most of the time the check means what it means, they're afraid of your pf raise and missed the flop or are still drawing.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think he probably hit that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
On what basis? Why can't he have 22-66, 99-TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or given that it's level one, suited connetors 56-KQ?

Villain could have anything from a set, to a nice draw, to shinola.

[ QUOTE ]

If you bet and he comes over the top, you're on a decision for a good portion of your chips. Yuck. And if he calls, there are a lot of turn cards that are bad news. Keep the pot small and playing the turn gets much easier. See if you can turn a heart, an A or K, and let position work for you.




[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't we let position work for us by betting the flop? a c-bet will give us all the info we need.. our opponent won't call it with nothing, and he won't go over the top with nothing... I think we have to stop being afraid of the CR against one player and just play a check for what it is on that board.. checking behind gives you no information, and now villain will be in prime stealing mode as he's first to bet on a harmless turn card (if there's a harmless turn

Blinds are still 15, so Hero is in no way committed to this hand too much, he can still get away with it and wait for next opportunity.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Would you consider checking behind without the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm much more likely to check behind here with the Ah. do people think that's right?

[Jason Strasser]

You can go either way here, there are benefits to both.

If you bet the flop people will sometimes fold better hands. You also are going to have the best hand here a portion of the time, and a bet on the flop can be thought of as protection for a very vulnerable but possibly best hand.

I guess some people might say that this board is so draw heavy that a bet on the flop is risky because a draw may move you off the best hand. My response to that would be, "who cares". It's not like you're in any real position to maximize your hands value versus worse hands.

If you check, you get to see a free turn card. You also have shown weakness and may get moved off the best hand, which again is not really a concern in my book. There's also a chance that, since AK is such a convenient read, it may be hard to get paid off if you hit your A or K on the turn, while it would be almost impossible for you to get away from the hand. That's generally a spot you want to avoid.

I think when it comes down to it, the benefits of the free turn card are not good enough to check this flop. Which brings me to my second point: Pot the flop. Make bigger bets. When you c-bet don't bet 1/3-1/2 or whatever. You want people to feel like they have to commit their stack when they come over your raise in this spot. If you are very aggressive people will come over you more often, but then you just need to pick your spots and pick off people.

-Jason

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you bet and he comes over the top, you're on a decision for a good portion of your chips. Yuck. And if he calls, there are a lot of turn cards that are bad news. Keep the pot small and playing the turn gets much easier. See if you can turn a heart, an A or K, and let position work for you.




[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't we let position work for us by betting the flop? a c-bet will give us all the info we need.. our opponent won't call it with nothing, and he won't go over the top with nothing... I think we have to stop being afraid of the CR against one player and just play a check for what it is on that board.. checking behind gives you no information, and now villain will be in prime stealing mode as he's first to bet on a harmless turn card (if there's a harmless turn

Blinds are still 15, so Hero is in no way committed to this hand too much, he can still get away with it and wait for next opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The challenge is that this guy seems pretty passive. (Anyone who limps and then calls immediately gets a note, and if they do it a lot, they get a little donkey symbol.) There are enough calling stations at this point that they may not be put off by your c-bet. Yes, you can give him incorrect odds, but if you c-bet, he calls, and the turn is 6-J, where are you?

I agree that I usually c-bet, I'm just playing schwza's advocate.

[Jason Strasser]

That type of thinking is really silly Schwza. It's like not buying a piece of artwork because the bathroom in the gallery was messy. Don't let a little detail like the Ah distract you from the core, fundamental ideas in this situation.

-Jason

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
Which brings me to my second point: Pot the flop. Make bigger bets. When you c-bet don't bet 1/3-1/2 or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming we don't adjust our flop bets based on whether we hit our hand (duh), do you generally make pot-sized c-bets? Not to thread-jack or anything...just looking for things I can do differently.

I think this is a good flop for a c-bet. Couldn't you just as easily have made the raise you made with AQ, KK, or AA? Wouldn't they all bet here? Villain doesn't know that you don't have those hands, so he probably isn't going to play back unless he's got something. If he was playing a low pocket pair, he'll probably let it go.

If you check, he'll probably bet a lot of hands, like low pairs, that you're behind but that he might fold to a flop bet. Even if you do pick up a draw, you'll still have to call a bet as a dog on the turn. If you miss the turn, you may end up folding a winner when he bets out something like AJ or a suited connector.

If you bet now and he does call with something like KQ or TT, he'll probably check to you again on the turn, and then you can take a free card and try to improve.

I guess what I'm saying is, it seems to me you can either take control of the betting now, or let Villain take control on the turn. I'd rather do it now, so I can get more information and hopefully see the river cheaply.

[Jason Strasser]

I tend to bet just less than the pot on almost all my cbets.

Fact: It's harder to play against players who bet more.

[schwza]

ok, i didn't cbet. presumably everybody bets the turn, so i just included that.

if you bet the river, you MUST include the amount and the phrase "if he c/r's."

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1140)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1285)
CO (t660)
Hero (t975)
SB (t970)
BB (t1045)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t985)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t60.

Flop: (t187.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t187.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, MP3 calls t120.

River: (t427.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero?

i have 780. pot is actually 430.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess some people might say that this board is so draw heavy that a bet on the flop is risky because a draw may move you off the best hand. My response to that would be, "who cares".

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhh... because i'd rather not throw away 120 chips if i'm going to get c/r'ed off my hand, never mind the possibility that i'm going to improve (or get to just check it down). or 190 chips, i suppose, but i'll respond to that point once i've read the rest of the comments on it.

[ QUOTE ]
There's also a chance that, since AK is such a convenient read, it may be hard to get paid off if you hit your A or K on the turn, while it would be almost impossible for you to get away from the hand. That's generally a spot you want to avoid.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think that's a good point.

[ QUOTE ]
If you check, you get to see a free turn card. You also have shown weakness and may get moved off the best hand, which again is not really a concern in my book.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is this not a concern? i'd hate to get bet off the hand by AT. i'd also hate to get bet off the hand by 55, which is technically better but can't stand a bet.

frankly, i'm never really sure when i should and shouldn't be cbetting when i miss. (maybe this is a topic for another thread, but i almost always do when i hit on a scare board, and sometimes do and sometimes don't when i hit on a dry board.) it's one thing i want to work on, so i'm going to post a lot more "cbet this flop?" threads.

[Roman]

225 fold to a push

[Lloyd]

Yes, I'd value bet here. If he had a set or two pair I think he'd bet or check-raise the turn. There are too many draws for him to check the best hand there. While he could have been on a draw, I think there's a decent chance he has some type of a pair and he might pay off a smallish bet on the river. I'd say around half the pot. And if he check-raises? Well, I don't think we make a value bet there if we don't believe we have the best hand. In a shallow stack tourney I'd be inclined to call his check-raise (likely for all your chips).

[Sam T.]

I bet t200, and consider it a value bet. You'll get a loose call from a Q or worse K (perhaps combined with a draw) to make it worth it.

If he check raises vomit and call. With two different draws on the board I don't see two pair or a set playing this passively, though I guess it's possible.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
That type of thinking is really silly Schwza. It's like not buying a piece of artwork because the bathroom in the gallery was messy. Don't let a little detail like the Ah distract you from the core, fundamental ideas in this situation.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, maybe i overstated the importance that i do/should place on the Ah. but if it were a close decision otherwise, do you agree i should be more likely to check behind with the Ah than without it?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to bet just less than the pot on almost all my cbets.

Fact: It's harder to play against players who bet more.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty strange to me. i haven't seen anyone else advocate this. i feel like i'm going to get moved off a decent percentage of cbets and i would rather save a few chips.

it is true that i've found myself planning on c/r'ing a cbet, and when it comes full-pot instead of 1/2-2/3, i chicken out.

does this include really dry boards, like if you have KK on a board of 257r?

[Lloyd]

Obviously having a good draw makes it more worthwhile to check behind then if you don't have a good draw. But I give more credence to that when one card can come that can make my hand. Here, besides an Ace or King, you need runner runner to make a flush or straight so I don't think having the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif makes a huge difference.

Certainly, any heart gives you good semi-bluff potential. But I think if he has a hand strong enough to stand up to checking a fairly draw heavy board then he'll play back at you even if the third heart comes.

[billyjex]

I bet this flop every single time. If he c/r, so be it, he probably has a good hand or good draw. But by betting 1/2 the pot despite the draws on board I think this shows a profit.

Also, a c/b will often let us see the river "free."

This is a standard continuation bet. Lead for t90, and then re-evaluate when raised. (most likley folding) Checking behind here is awfly weak-tight. There are a lot of hands he could have here, and more than 3/4 missed this flop.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly, any heart gives you good semi-bluff potential. But I think if he has a hand strong enough to stand up to checking a fairly draw heavy board then he'll play back at you even if the third heart comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[Lloyd]

If the turn is a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, you have a good semi-bluff hand. So even if you don't have a pair, you would certainly bet or even raise and possibly take down the hand.

If he doesn't have a good hand, he'll probably fold on the turn whether or not a /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes or not as long as you bet. Even if he leads out on the turn, a raise by you with the /images/graemlins/heart.gif could very likely result in him folding a better hand. However, in both of these cases if you make a solid continuation bet on the flop you might very well win the hand right then.

If he in fact has a big hand - a set or two pair - he will most likely play back even if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes. So what I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that even though the /images/graemlins/heart.gif turn looks like a good semi-bluff opportunity for you, you'll probably get the same result by making a continuation bet on the flop. He'll fold his weak hands, he'll raise his big hands. And if he calls the flop and checks the turn, I think it's very likely he got a piece but not a big one and can be pushed off the hand.

[billyjex]

I should clarify that heads up in position after the flop the only time I check is with a decent hand that just hates to be C/R, like AK on a QTx board, that is more likely to hit the opponent but in which I would like to see at least one more card. Same goes for an OESD, or maybe if I raised w/ 7s6s and the flop is JsTc6d.

This hand isn't that great and it's outs aren't that strong. I would rather just take it down on the flop.

The only time I will check other than the above circumstances are against a habitual check/raiser.

[schwza]

thanks for replies all, i thought this was a very good thread.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1140)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1285)
CO (t660)
Hero (t975)
SB (t970)
BB (t1045)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t985)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t60.

Flop: (t187.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t187.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, MP3 calls t120.

River: (t427.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t180</font>, MP3 calls t180.

Final Pot: t787.50

villain has <font color="white"> 77 </font>. hahahahahaha.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
Which brings me to my second point: Pot the flop. Make bigger bets. When you c-bet don't bet 1/3-1/2 or whatever. You want people to feel like they have to commit their stack when they come over your raise in this spot. If you are very aggressive people will come over you more often, but then you just need to pick your spots and pick off people.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect your play a lot Jason, but I disagree with this. I agree 1/3-1/2 is way too weak for a c-bet online, but always betting the pot is a mistake IMO. I personally believe that betting 110 or 120 here is just as effective as 180 on this flop, and you'll lose a lot less on the times villian actually does have a hand. While it is true that betting 180 may cause some villians to fold a little more often, I have a hard time believing that it makes a difference often enough to be overall more +EV than betting around 2/3 of the flop. Depending on a lot of factors (flop texture, my read on villian, general table mood, etc) my c-bets are usually between 1/2 and 2/3 of the pot, usually closer to 2/3 but it will depend a lot on the player.

To make a pot sized bet more +EV than a 2/3 size bet you need to be confident that the pot sized bet will result in a fold more than 10% more often than the 2/3 size bet (I can do the underlying math if anyone wants to see it), and in my experience I just don't think the difference is that great. That can depend some based on the player, but for the average villian, I don't think it changes that much.

That being said, your c-bets need to match your value bets or else the whole point is moot. If you're a player who pot bets hand for value, then you must pot bet your c-bets as well. I tend to do ~2/3 for value bets, so I like my c-bets to match.

-Rizen

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
Fact: It's harder to play against players who bet more.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very, very important truth that you have to learn to play good, aggressive poker. If you bet 175 here he will not be pleased with an underpair or draw or anything quasimarginal. He's afraid to play this pot with you because you're threatening to make it big and cost him a fat chunk of his stack.

If you bet 125 or something wimpy there's no telling what hands he'll hold onto or what he'll try to move you out with. Threaten his stack with every bet you make. Control the pot.

Everett

[Jason Strasser]

The 60 or so chips you save by betting 1/2 the pot versus more IMO is not worth it because people genuinely will play back at you far less when you bet bigger. Just try it out a little bit and watchi how people react to you at the table.

I obviously don't always bet 3/4-pot. There are other reasons to bet less and more, but those just have to do with feel at the table.

-Jason

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The 60 or so chips you save by betting 1/2 the pot versus more IMO is not worth it because people genuinely will play back at you far less when you bet bigger. Just try it out a little bit and watchi how people react to you at the table.

I obviously don't always bet 3/4-pot. There are other reasons to bet less and more, but those just have to do with feel at the table.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

but you were talking about betting full pot or just under before. that's a big difference from 3/4 pot.

also, if you think that a lot fewer people will play when you make a bigger bet, do you find that you're losing too much value from your made hands?

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
The 60 or so chips you save by betting 1/2 the pot versus more IMO is not worth it because people genuinely will play back at you far less when you bet bigger. Just try it out a little bit and watchi how people react to you at the table.

I obviously don't always bet 3/4-pot. There are other reasons to bet less and more, but those just have to do with feel at the table.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

But the difference between full pot and 1/2 to 2/3 pot is not always 60 chips, and in some cases the 60 chips may be meaningful. I dunno, I'm still not convinced you gain the 10% FE you'd need to make full pot more profitable than 2/3 pot.

Your main arguement is that later on in a tournament you'll get played back at less. Perhaps this is more valuable in live tournaments, but I find that making plays based on future expectation in online tournaments doesn't buy you a whole lot until the final 2-3 tables (or on party when you know you're at a table that won't break down for a while).

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of factors go into deciding the size of your conitunation bet, and I also believe that sometimes betting the pot as your continuation bet is the best move. I just think you're costing yourself money if you make continuation betting the pot 'standard'.

Thanks for the input though. I hadn't thought about it much in the perspective of how it might help you on later down the road. Quite honestly I don't make plays based on their future expectation very often in online tournaments though, because I usually find the table dynamics change so fast that it doesn't make sense to do anything but the most optimal play at the time very often.

-Rizen