$55's... Diamonds Are Forever

[bigt439]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1815)
BB (t1480)
UTG (t975)
UTG+1 (t875)
MP1 (t670)
MP2 (t1075)
MP3 (t1080)
CO (t1070)
Button (t960)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t150) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>, BB calls t125, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t1045 (All-In)</font>, Button folds, Hero ?

Final Pot: t1445

Smells like slowplay up in hurr. Weird spot to push the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif too. I'm just afraid a weaker A thinks he's good. Other dude's behind me too, but I'm not terribly concerned.

I was planning on check calling the flop and 1/2 potting most turns. Obviously this isn't set in stone because of all the shizz that can go down, but I'm not playing a big pot on the flop. Feel free to comment on that too.

[citanul]

i'm intrigued about your line.

what was your reasoning behind checking the flop?

then what changed when you decided to bet the turn? (and further, instead of taking another line on the turn?)

c

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm intrigued about your line.

what was your reasoning behind checking the flop?

then what changed when you decided to bet the turn? (and further, instead of taking another line on the turn?)

c

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I edited in flop logic just as you replied. I don't want to play a big pot on the flop, but I don't want to fold either. I think my hand's value increases a lot if we get to a turn cheaply (both because higher /images/graemlins/diamond.gif draws have way less equity and because if we got their cheaply my hand looks better against the range). I basically wanna send it around and sees what goes down. My hand's value is very volatile in relation to potential action.

Turn I think a bet is good because I have a pretty big hand given the flop action, people shouldn't be semi-bluffing because it is really bad unless they know exactly how I play, and I don't like a c/r because it's awkward and let's opponents play too well. Betting also charges draws and worse hands that won't bet.

[Hornacek]

I'm fine with your line as is. It's hard to play these hands from EP. I am pretty sure you are losing to the CR all in. In the event that he's a weaker ace, then so it goes, but I'm not too reluctant to let go of my marginal hand here. You still have chips to play around with; don't get busted out on a borderline scenario that makes you second-guess your play.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fine with your line as is. It's hard to play these hands from EP. I am pretty sure you are losing to the CR all in. In the event that he's a weaker ace, then so it goes, but I'm not too reluctant to let go of my marginal hand here. You still have chips to play around with; don't get busted out on a borderline scenario that makes you second-guess your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the input.

But just to clarify, no one check raised.

[Hornacek]

Oops! Sorry. You're right, but it still doesn't change my opinion of the situation.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. You have what you want...your opponent crushed. You have the high set and a high flush draw. Easy easy call.

[microbet]

Seems like an awfully bold spot for him to bluff. Slowplaying the flush seems more likely. A full house that was afraid to bet the flop seems possible. An ace you outkick is certainly possible, but I think it is a good fold. Not sure if I would make it gametime though.

[Slim Pickens]

I think your hand is good and you should call. What hand that beats you makes that play? I see a K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw maybe doing that, or maybe nothing. A smart player might play a flopped flush that way... Your flop check and turn lead looks like you're trying to pick up the pot and the all-in is a resteal.

Am I the only one who is leading on this flop and then pushing that turn? Just watch A4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif call you.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like an awfully bold spot for him to bluff. Slowplaying the flush seems more likely. A full house that was afraid to bet the flop seems possible. An ace you outkick is certainly possible, but I think it is a good fold. Not sure if I would make it gametime though.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow I think you guys are overestimating villain here. A FH would put villain squarely on 66 or AT/A6 (TT I doubt), both of which would bet the flop with the Ds outs there and both of which would/should not push the turn and let and single ds draw to the river.

A made flush on the flop is more likely than the Fh scenarios, but not enough to make me fold this.

I think you're overthinking this.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your hand is good and you should call. What hand that beats you makes that play? I see a K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw maybe doing that, or maybe nothing. A smart player might play a flopped flush that way... Your flop check and turn lead looks like you're trying to pick up the pot and the all-in is a resteal.

Am I the only one who is leading on this flop and then pushing that turn? Just watch A4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif call you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to be an ass, but I think I disagree with just about every sentence in that paragraph. I won't get into it because I think of a lot of it will be touched on in future replies.

[Slim Pickens]

Here's the thing, at least one of the two others in this hand has total garbage. The other could have anything from aces up with a diamond draw to a made full house. It's early enough in the tournament that the idiots are still around to call off their stack with aces up on that board. I'm more apt to put the BB on a real hand than the all-in raiser.

If you're wrong and they have 66 and K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifx/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, river quads.

[tigerite]

I'd lead the flop as well, SP.

[pooh74]

Another thing I think is worth mentioning is that, yeah, once in awhile you get in a hand like this and make a what turns out to be a "good laydown" and it makes you look like a genius. However, at mid-low stakes, playing these in bulk, 4 out of 5 times you are going to double up here and it isnt worth it, unless your ego is that big or something.

I would never fold here and more power to villain WHEN he beats me...

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the flop as well, SP.

[/ QUOTE ]

With what plan for the rest of the hand?

Not saying I don't like it, but it doesn't mean a whole lot in isolation.

To chime in on a couple issues:

- good point about full houses being much less likely than made flushes, but make sure you still remember higher A's that aren't a FH are out, and FH is still a possibility
- make sure we remember we have two villains to beat here
- make sure we are clear that this is an awful spot to bluff, not that it won't happen, but let's be clear only bad players are bluffing here
- I likely have a decent amount of equity if behind
- I don't see any made hand worse than trips doing this (e.g. a ten or KK no /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for aces up)

I think mp's hand is, in the following order:

flush
ace that beats me (remember he's in mp)
ace i beat
flush draw
other shizz

Anyways I folded, so did BB. I don't know what either had.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the flop as well, SP.


[/ QUOTE ]

With what plan for the rest of the hand?

Not saying I don't like it, but it doesn't mean a whole lot in isolation.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should be able to get anyone without a diamond or A to fold. So, it works well for isolation/limiting the field.


[ QUOTE ]

- good point about full houses being much less likely than made flushes, but make sure you still remember higher A's that aren't a FH are out, and FH is still a possibility


[/ QUOTE ]

You'd likely see AQ or AK raise preflop - not all the time, but most of the time. AQ maybe not ...


[ QUOTE ]

- make sure we remember we have two villains to beat here


[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop. It will at least define a little more whether or not these monkeys have a hand or not.

Also, with AAA, you've got to be ahead of at least one of them. So, I'm not really worried about 'two' I'm only worried about the one with the flush.


[ QUOTE ]

- make sure we are clear that this is an awful spot to bluff, not that it won't happen, but let's be clear only bad players are bluffing here


[/ QUOTE ]

Hm ... okay. Whatever. If you raise and 'bluff' on the flop or turn, and everyone folds, it was a great spot to bluff. This board is scary, if you can get a cheap bluff in, and you think your opponents will fold without a very good hand (will fold top pair/two pair on this scary board) then it is a good spot to bluff. I'm not saying I would, but in the right situation I could bluff at this. Espically if I was 60% (made up number) sure it would push you off of trips.

[ QUOTE ]

- I likely have a decent amount of equity if behind


[/ QUOTE ]

True.

[ QUOTE ]

- I don't see any made hand worse than trips doing this (e.g. a ten or KK no /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for aces up)


[/ QUOTE ]

How long have you been playing?


[ QUOTE ]

I think mp's hand is, in the following order:

flush
ace that beats me (remember he's in mp)
ace i beat
flush draw
other shizz

Anyways I folded, so did BB. I don't know what either had.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is saying that you think your opponent has ANYTHING.

[microbet]

FH is just another possible hand that beats you. I wouldn't fold a decent flush for sure.

You beat a bluff or A9,A8,A7,A5-. The weak aces are certainly possible, but a weak ace may bet the flop and 2 pair or better may check.

The hands you beat are a pretty narrow range unless you give him a decent chance of bluffing, I think.

[microbet]

You probably don't remember, but where you thinking c-raise on the flop?

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]


I think mp's hand is, in the following order:

flush
ace that beats me (remember he's in mp)
ace i beat
flush draw
other shizz

Anyways I folded, so did BB. I don't know what either had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post, nice thread altogether.

Personally I have a very hard time putting villain on a hand. I don't believe AK/AQ, those hands should raise preflop and on the flop when checked to.

90% of the time I'd put villain on:
1) Flush
2) Ax (that we beat)

I think the flush is more likely ---&gt; fold.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the flop as well, SP.

[/ QUOTE ]

With what plan for the rest of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on who calls. If you lead for 3/4-1 pot and get a call and check-overcall, I'm usually putting the caller on an ace/flush draw/made flush/set and the overcaller on flush draw/made flush/set. Also though, I often forget most players don't care if they're calling or overcalling... anyway. I'm also expecting a set to push a lot of the time on that flop, and mostly discounting the possibility of a better ace out against me. There's also the aces up plus flush draw hands that limpers might have... k/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif.

When the third ace hits the turn, the pot is big enough to push and get called by everything. The worse ace you have crushed. Against a good flush you have one ace, three jacks, and six board pairing cards for ten outs. Against a a small flush, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, you have 7 more. I think this is enough to want to get called, although obviously you'd rather not see the river if BB has a small flush that he might fold. That's how I see it playing out.

Unless the $55s at Party are drastically tighter than the ones at PS, I say you have to call that early in a tourney. Unless the board is a 4-flush or straight, or you have a read on a rock, I don't think you ever go broke betting trip-aces/J kicker early in an online SNG.

Looks like a defensive low flush bet. But the possibility that it isn't, and the decent outs you still have, make it a profitable play IMO. Outs + random early idiots = call. Then again I like to push things early, then move onto the next SNG if it doesn't work out, or tighten up if it does.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably don't remember, but where you thinking c-raise on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I put my logic in the initial post as an edit and as a reply to citanul. I'm going to go as so far to say I hate a lead on this flop. I actually like my planned line for the hand (in the reply to citanul) alot. Again, not saying it's right, but I like it. Things get wonky with the turn though.

WTH am I talking about? I forgot he checked the flop. That's no defensive low flush play. That's just weird. But why go all-in there if you're slowplaying? Probably just happy to take a decent pot or hoping you'd call with your trips while you still had some more outs. Nice fold.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
FH is just another possible hand that beats you. I wouldn't fold a decent flush for sure.

You beat a bluff or A9,A8,A7,A5-. The weak aces are certainly possible, but a weak ace may bet the flop and 2 pair or better may check.

The hands you beat are a pretty narrow range unless you give him a decent chance of bluffing, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would give him a decent chance of semibluffing with a high diamond.

[kyro]

I don't mind the flop check. I don't feel like betting and then have it come raised back to me and all I have is TPJK and looking at committing too much of my stack with a draw that may or may not be good.

The turn. Meh. I think you'll see an A here as much as you'll see two diamonds. And, if he has two diamonds, pray they're smaller than your J. I think you have to call here.