Stupid Bellagio

[bicyclekick]

We had 8 players who wanted to start a 4/8 mixed game on sunday night and there were dealers sitting around saying they would deal it, like 10 open tables, but the floors wouldn't start us a game as they said they don't spread a mixed game lower than 40/80 by policy. Such a freaking joke. Mason even tried pulling some strings to no avail. He did say if the head guy was there he would understand and spread the game, but the peons don't understand the situation well enough to allow it. Missing out on a table full of rake and lots of generous tipping. Good call morons.

So frustrating.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

This was basically the impression of the management of the room that I got from being there. My impression of the Wynn floor is that they would've handled this differently.

[stinkypete]

you can bet your ass the dealers have heard about low limit 2+2 mixed games, and were drooling over the opportunity

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
We had 8 players who wanted to start a 4/8 mixed game on sunday night and there were dealers sitting around saying they would deal it, like 10 open tables, but the floors wouldn't start us a game as they said they don't spread a mixed game lower than 40/80 by policy. Such a freaking joke. Mason even tried pulling some strings to no avail. He did say if the head guy was there he would understand and spread the game, but the peons don't understand the situation well enough to allow it. Missing out on a table full of rake and lots of generous tipping. Good call morons.

So frustrating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds typical of the Bellagio. Best games, horrible floor management. Did you take the game to the Wynn instead?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[bodie]

I have never had a good experience with the floor at Bellagio.
Doesn't surprise me.

[Don Olney]

Here is a little tip---
Head over to the Aladdin--
MIXED GAME---ok they will spead it
5/10 game for you east coast players --THEY WILL SPREAD IT
RAZZ---hey LETS GO they will spread it---

[B Dids]

Here is the difference between the Wynn and the Bellagio:

Bell=threw out Shant for placing side bets on the color of the flop.

Wynn=allowed the same bets and took side action.

The Bellagio seems determined to have a stick up their ass.

[andyfox]

"Missing out on a table full of rake and lots of generous tipping."

Last 2+2 magoo-fest at the Bike, I win a pot with A-K unimproved to Josh W.'s A-Q. I tip about half the profit and Josh matches my tip. Dealer looks at him funny and he says, "I had a good hand too. A-Q suited."

Frustrating and a shame.

[hellite]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the difference between the Wynn and the Bellagio:

Bell=threw out Shant for placing side bets on the color of the flop.

Wynn=allowed the same bets and took side action.

The Bellagio seems determined to have a stick up their ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is hilarious. Who does shant think he is trying to gamble in casino? That is definitely a no no!

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the difference between the Wynn and the Bellagio:

Bell=threw out Shant for placing side bets on the color of the flop.

Wynn=allowed the same bets and took side action.

The Bellagio seems determined to have a stick up their ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is hilarious. Who does shant think he is trying to gamble in casino? That is definitely a no no!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes the person telling you not to gamble is not who you'd expect. There are times when you should not gamble, such as when you're under 21 or had too much to drink... when you're lonely or depressed

[B Dids]

I think the actual reason was really that he was upsetting the tilted local who was offended because jason_t existed or something.

The Bellagio spend most of Saturday chasing us off the rail, whereas the Wynn allowed us to carry on a game that featured literal stealing of pots, my chipstack getting kicked over, and other acts that would have made the night floor at the Bellagio cry.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We had 8 players who wanted to start a 4/8 mixed game on sunday night and there were dealers sitting around saying they would deal it, like 10 open tables, but the floors wouldn't start us a game as they said they don't spread a mixed game lower than 40/80 by policy. Such a freaking joke. Mason even tried pulling some strings to no avail. He did say if the head guy was there he would understand and spread the game, but the peons don't understand the situation well enough to allow it. Missing out on a table full of rake and lots of generous tipping. Good call morons.

So frustrating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds typical of the Bellagio. Best games, horrible floor management. Did you take the game to the Wynn instead?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

if this same group hadn't gotten carded the previous night and had one or two go "get" IDs...yes, we would have. That was the issue.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the difference between the Wynn and the Bellagio:

Bell=threw out Shant for placing side bets on the color of the flop.

Wynn=allowed the same bets and took side action.

The Bellagio seems determined to have a stick up their ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, I was sidebetting against a dealer on the color of flops in the 30/60 at Bellagio for awhile, and with other players whenever I could, nobody had a problem with it. The mistake Shant, Jason, etc made was in trying to do so at 4/8, where the floorpeople feel the need to protect the regulars from anything uncomfortable.

But BK's original point about them not spreading the 4/8 for us stands as ridiculous. They claim they won't spread a different limit of the same game because it might hurt the regular game - I'm sure our 4/8 mixed was going to cause the 40/80 to break /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Can we all just agree that drunken BK trying to bribe floorpeople to allow this and then getting the Mason to help was awesome? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[shant]

I think the other difference was you were sitting in the game and not standing next to the table with a fan of one dollar bills.

F THE BELLAGIO. LONG LIVE THE WYNN.

[Justin Smith]

come to Ct for the WPF and u can start a 2-4 hoset or hose or hoe if u really want

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the difference between the Wynn and the Bellagio:

Bell=threw out Shant for placing side bets on the color of the flop.

Wynn=allowed the same bets and took side action.

The Bellagio seems determined to have a stick up their ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is hilarious. Who does shant think he is trying to gamble in casino? That is definitely a no no!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes the person telling you not to gamble is not who you'd expect. There are times when you should not gamble, such as when you're under 21 or had too much to drink... when you're lonely or depressed

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

This is why I love playing at Wynn, they spread anything, anytime, any handed. They understand if it gets going, they will get a full rake going and can start with low/no rake and new games. It makes no sense to be paying a dealer minimum wage and have him sitting around while there are empty tables in a room and players looking to play. All you had to do was go to Wynn and they woulda hooked you up. Especially if Kathleen was there.

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the difference between the Wynn and the Bellagio:

Bell=threw out Shant for placing side bets on the color of the flop.

Wynn=allowed the same bets and took side action.

The Bellagio seems determined to have a stick up their ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet everyone still goes to Bellagio. Come on people, we need to work together to get all Bellagio regulars to come to Wynn on the same day.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Especially if Kathleen was there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is she that floor manager there? Glasses? Around 40? If so, I thought she was definitely cool. Even one of the chip runners (Benjamin) said she was really cool.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Especially if Kathleen was there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is she that floor manager there? Glasses? Around 40? If so, I thought she was definitely cool. Even one of the chip runners (Benjamin) said she was really cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the person you are referring to is the big dick while I believe Kathleen is 2nd big dick. And for the idiots out there, I mean in charge when I say big dick. Can anyone confirm this or are they both the cardroom managers or what?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Especially if Kathleen was there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is she that floor manager there? Glasses? Around 40? If so, I thought she was definitely cool. Even one of the chip runners (Benjamin) said she was really cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the person you are referring to is the big dick while I believe Kathleen is 2nd big dick. And for the idiots out there, I mean in charge when I say big dick. Can anyone confirm this or are they both the cardroom managers or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then her name was Catherine. She was standing there while the waitress brought me drink after drink and I wasn't even playing. Like I said, very cool.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Especially if Kathleen was there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is she that floor manager there? Glasses? Around 40? If so, I thought she was definitely cool. Even one of the chip runners (Benjamin) said she was really cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the person you are referring to is the big dick while I believe Kathleen is 2nd big dick. And for the idiots out there, I mean in charge when I say big dick. Can anyone confirm this or are they both the cardroom managers or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then her name was Catherine. She was standing there while the waitress brought me drink after drink and I wasn't even playing. Like I said, very cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Catherine is big dick. She is cool also I guess, but not on the same level as Kathleen.

[goofball]

Kathleen is awesome. Also, we most deifnietly do NOT need to get many bellagio regulars at the Wynn. Many of the bellagio regulars are grumpy nitty or angle shooters. I dislike them.

[Ulysses]

My first reaction to this post was, damn Bike, 400/800 mixed? That's a big game.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
My first reaction to this post was, damn Bike, 400/800 mixed? That's a big game.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was running already

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
"Missing out on a table full of rake and lots of generous tipping."

Last 2+2 magoo-fest at the Bike, I win a pot with A-K unimproved to Josh W.'s A-Q. I tip about half the profit and Josh matches my tip. Dealer looks at him funny and he says, "I had a good hand too. A-Q suited."

Frustrating and a shame.

[/ QUOTE ]

One other magoo fest at commerce w/ sucker, elD, glen, sooga, clarknasty, dynomeister, and NPA (sorry if I'm forgetting anybody...gabe maybe...oh, and mike l). Well, afterwards, we are rehashing it here (duh!), and we were all saying how much we won/lost. We then realized how much the rake was. Somebody (ulysses?) says "yeah, it didn't help that josh tipped a pot to the dealer".

I never thought I'd stoop that low again.

Fastforward to last monday (I think...maybe tuesday), at Hawaiian Gardens, playing 8-16 w/ very good friend and his ex girlfriend. She in on my left, openraises UTG (which is the same as "raises UTG"), all fold to me. I have Q3o, flop 843, turn Q, river Q, she has AA, and got checkraised 3 times.

Many of the bets are still stacked up, so I clump a lot of them together and gave them to the dealer...maybe $50 or so.

Yikes.

Josh

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the actual reason was really that he was upsetting the tilted local who was offended because jason_t existed or something.


[/ QUOTE ]

He probably deserved it, damn pretty boy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[J.A.Sucker]

I was in that game, and Gabe made that comment. I will punish you by being down in your neck of the woods this weekend.

[Josh W]

I have a really stupid question to ask you, but can't ask it here. Remind me when I see you.

And, oh yeah, I'm broke. I can't play anything bigger than 40-80, so you'll have to beat the 300-600 by yourself.

J

[andyfox]

"oh yeah, I'm broke."

Watching a movie called Twilight last night. Paul Newman is an ex-cop, ex private eye, kind of semi-retired, living at the lavish home of Hollywood stars, played by Gene Hackman and Susan Sarandon.

Sarandon says to Newman, "We're broke."

Newman responds, "No, you're overextended. Some day I'll explain the difference to you."

[andyfox]

"I will punish you by being down in your neck of the woods this weekend."

Bring it on, Sucker. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Josh W]

The irony of course is that I'm multitabling 100-200 as I write this. I just need to stop playing this big when my heads not in the game, so I tell myself I'm broke. I was hoping that publicly announcing it would help, but nope. My ego got in the way.

[andyfox]

"The irony of course is that I'm multitabling 100-200 as I write this."

The defense rests. Literally. Good night.

Regards,
Andy

P.S.: Hope to see you Sunday.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bike:

In fairness to The Bellagio management, they need to establish rules which are long term good for the cardroom. That's what happened here in the sense that they would not spread this game at the limit that you were asking for.

The brush on duty did not have the authority to override these instructions. Thus from his point of view he was only doing his job as he was suppose to. I do agree however that if Doug Dalton, who is in charge of all poker at The Bellagio, would have been there at that time, he would have understood that your situation was an exception to the general rule and your game would have been spread.

Best wishes,
Mason

[TStoneMBD]

hi BK, i agree with mason that its reasonable for the bellagio to deny spreading this game. they think its a good long term strategy not to spread low limit mixed games which is probably accurate and if they spread the 4/8 mixed game for you they are going to have to spread it for everybody once they find out they did it once.

[RyGreen18]

not that this is directly related to the post, but i must thank the 2+2 crew for putting all the Bellagio regulars on long-term tilt after the magoofest weekend. i am still here and getting absolutely no respect at 30/60 from a number of them who see me as 'one of the kids that raises preflop all the f'n time' to quote one [censored] correctly. i'm sure i owe many of you a drink, stheif in particular...

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
This was basically the impression of the management of the room that I got from being there. My impression of the Wynn floor is that they would've handled this differently.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Wynn was the shite. Although I was there twice I don't remember leaving either time. "Donkeys always draw, I am berating the fish because I am drunk and leaving soon"

[andyfox]

"one of the kids that raises preflop all the f'n time'"

Well, I'm hardly a kid, and I don't play a lot of hands, but one of the Bellagio regulars once said to me, "You know, you can limp, sir, it's not against the rules."

[danderso8]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never had a good experience with the floor at Bellagio.
Doesn't surprise me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not...the floor there is way too small. The back of your chair is constantly getting bumped from people walking through the narrow aisles cause they have so many damn tables in there. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The reasons that I, and many locals of las vegas rarely play at bellagio are as follows...

1. Their daisy-chained triple+ must-move game system sucks majorly, particularly for 2-5 no limit. What every happend to "must move for the first hour?" I tell you what, that final game in the chain almost always SUCKS and I've never stayed in it for more than about 15 minutes.

2. their structure for 2-5 no limit sucks

3. there is a long to very long wait much of the time, particularly during the best times to play cards, like weekends and swing shift

4. (and this is the big one folks) their staff is often times not very friendly at all, and it's quite obvious that since they don't need your business, they're not going to bend over backwards very far for you (unless maybe you're one of their cronies who grease the right wheels). This is not only my personal experience, but the sentiment of many of my poker friends and acquaintances. Whether this is an "absolute truth" or not is debatable, but it's certainly a common perception amongst frequent vegas card players.

5. Unless you're looking for upper middle to high limit play, there are other places where you can get the same limits, equal or better games, be treated well, and not have to wait long.

To elaborate on number 5...

I play 1-3 or 2-5 no limit at wynn a lot. Despite wynn's problems, it's a pretty good room for these games, particularly if you are game selective. Wynn has also has 10-20 mixed games going a lot lately. 15-30 holdem is often available, as is 8-16 (but wynn uses $2 chips, which is a great idea that bellagio still hasn't wised up to).

Why any low limit player would go to bellagio is beyond me. Every room in town has tons of low limit games; 2-4, 3-6, 4-8 and baby no limit are everywhere.

No limit at MGM is almost always fish city, especially if you are willing to scout your game, getting a transfer is no problem, and there's rarely a long wait, even on weekends. MGM is spreading 5-5 no limit more and more these days as well. Limit hold'em games there rarely go higher than 4-8 tho*, but they get 6-12 and 10-20 going sometimes. The staff at MGM has always been great, particularly the swing shift management.

Mirage seems to still have the 10-20, 20-40 and 40-80 markets mostly cornered. I have a few friends who swear by their middle limit hold'em games. Now like the B, Mirage is sometimes very busy, with long waits. The primary difference between mirage and bellagio is that I've always LIKED the mirage, and almost every time I go to bellagio I remember exactly why I DON'T go to bellagio.

al

*I believe this is because they have too many small limit games that are too close together in stakes. In particular, there's little chance of starting a 6-12 game if there are two 4-8 half kill and a bunch of 3-6 games running.

[bicyclekick]

Yeah it really is too bad the only mid/high action you can get is at the bellagio. They generally treat you a little more decent when you're playing those stakes, though.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"Missing out on a table full of rake and lots of generous tipping."

Last 2+2 magoo-fest at the Bike, I win a pot with A-K unimproved to Josh W.'s A-Q. I tip about half the profit and Josh matches my tip. Dealer looks at him funny and he says, "I had a good hand too. A-Q suited."

Frustrating and a shame.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Bike dealers told me they were disappointed I didn't get you guys back /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Their daisy-chained triple+ must-move game system sucks majorly, particularly for 2-5 no limit. What every happend to "must move for the first hour?" I tell you what, that final game in the chain almost always SUCKS and I've never stayed in it for more than about 15 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll pile on this one whenever I can (even at the risk of repeating myself, which in fact I am).

Chained must moves are a filtration system designed to remove all the fun and gamble from a game. The action player's second move is often out the door, leaving a main game full of stuck, joyless nits.

A few years ago the Bike was often getting three to five 20/40 stud/8 games. My Hero/GF was a semi-regular. Then management implemented a chained must move, probably to mollify a complaint from a daytime nit. Hero/GF, an action player with a great personality and manners (I'm really not sucking up here - Andy Fox, Clarkmeister and Dynasty among others would probably agree /images/graemlins/grin.gif), comes in to play. She's moved once no problem, she understood the idea of a must move. Now she's in a game she likes. She was asked to move again. She sees the next game in the chain and decided to leave for the night. Later she asked me about the policy. I explained my personal dislike of the policy and told her that upper management said it wouldn't be changed. She rarely played 20/40 stud/8 at the Bike again.

The Bike now has two to three 20/40 stud/8 games.

~ Rick

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Chained must moves are a filtration system designed to remove all the fun and gamble from a game. The action player's second move is often out the door, leaving a main game full of stuck, joyless nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players that play during the day and get the ear of poker management liek it this way; they become angry if anyone tries to have fun in the poker room.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chained must moves are a filtration system designed to remove all the fun and gamble from a game. The action player's second move is often out the door, leaving a main game full of stuck, joyless nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players that play during the day and get the ear of poker management liek it this way; they become angry if anyone tries to have fun in the poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on the reasoning (even if it's faulty) for PLAYERS wanting a must move system? I don't understand why any player would prefer the must move system since the main game is always awful (as already stated).

Thanks,
KoW

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
The players that play during the day and get the ear of poker management liek it this way; they become angry if anyone tries to have fun in the poker room.


[/ QUOTE ]

How absolutely and sadly true. Vegas is the PRIME example. The MAJORITY of locals, ESPECIALLY daytime players here in vegas, are just plain jerks, with a large dose of no-fun on the side. Perhaps cardrooms should only be open on swing and grave.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chained must moves are a filtration system designed to remove all the fun and gamble from a game. The action player's second move is often out the door, leaving a main game full of stuck, joyless nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players that play during the day and get the ear of poker management liek it this way; they become angry if anyone tries to have fun in the poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on the reasoning (even if it's faulty) for PLAYERS wanting a must move system? I don't understand why any player would prefer the must move system since the main game is always awful (as already stated).

Thanks,
KoW

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always the palyers that want a must move system; a must move system does nothgin for the casino. Players want a must move system so if they have been sitting there palying their game wont' break up because they have been there the longest.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chained must moves are a filtration system designed to remove all the fun and gamble from a game. The action player's second move is often out the door, leaving a main game full of stuck, joyless nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players that play during the day and get the ear of poker management liek it this way; they become angry if anyone tries to have fun in the poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

[Masquerade]

Who was the shift manager? That tall bald-headed guy? Nate? He's a tool.

[Iolaus]

[ QUOTE ]

3. there is a long to very long wait much of the time, particularly during the best times to play cards, like weekends and swing shift



[/ QUOTE ]

I've lived here in Las Vegas for a year-and-a-half now, and this is the exact reason I have never played at Bellagio. Wynn has won me as a regular (currently 8/16) until I work my way beyond 40/80.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
their staff is often times not very friendly at all, and it's quite obvious that since they don't need your business, they're not going to bend over backwards very far for you (unless maybe you're one of their cronies who grease the right wheels). This is not only my personal experience, but the sentiment of many of my poker friends and acquaintances. Whether this is an "absolute truth" or not is debatable, but it's certainly a common perception amongst frequent vegas card players.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not a 'frequent' Vegas card player.
I've been to Vegas once...the 2005 WSOP.
Was there for 2 weeks...and played at the Bellagio 4 or 5 different times.


I knew virtually nothing about the Bellagio except that it's a big room and I should play there (had not read ANYTHING about the staff or any such threads since I'm not in Vegas).

Even not knowing ANYTHING about their reputation ahead of time...this is exactly the impression they left me with.


I left thinking, "wow. extremely rude staff...and I can't believe they would design the room in such a way that so many players would get their chair bumper and twisted around all night long."

Later did I learn that everyone else seems to feel this way about the staff too. until reading some threads here I considered the possibility that it was just because of the hyper-crowded conditions with the WSOP in town leading to an over-stressed staff. But my hunch was that they were probably pricks year-round...not just during WSOP-time.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the reasoning (even if it's faulty) for PLAYERS wanting a must move system? I don't understand why any player would prefer the must move system since the main game is always awful (as already stated).

[/ QUOTE ]

Day time nits can't see the forest from the trees so there is no good reason except they can't stand being in a game with an empty seat.

Another advantage of not using must moves (or using them as little as possible, taking them off ASAP) is that the game that usually breaks first is the worst game, meaning the quality of the games overall improves.

~ Rick

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Masquerade:

First off Nate is not a shift manager. Second, I'm not sure who was on that night.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi TStone:

I understood that the game requested was a $10-$20 mixed game and not a $4-$8.

The Bellagio is concious of not spreading certain limit games because they feel, and I agree, that it can damage some of the games at other close limits that they regularly spread. However, I don't thin a $10-$20 mixed game would have this effect.

The Wynn is now spreading it and if it does get popular there, I wouldn't be surprised to see The Bellagio having it at some time in the future. However, it doesn't go all the time at The Wynn, so I wouldn't hold your breath (so to speak).

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Cowboy:

maybe they're just giving you back a little bit of your money so you'll have enough to come back for the next magoofest. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Larry:

While I agree with you that The Wynn will spread any game any limit, it's also one of the reasons why their room has not done as well as it should. We have had much discussion on this topic before,

best wishes,
mason

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
not that this is directly related to the post, but i must thank the 2+2 crew for putting all the Bellagio regulars on long-term tilt after the magoofest weekend. i am still here and getting absolutely no respect at 30/60 from a number of them who see me as 'one of the kids that raises preflop all the f'n time' to quote one [censored] correctly. i'm sure i owe many of you a drink, stheif in particular...

[/ QUOTE ]

well, Josh did take the most hideous live beat i have ever seen in that game.......besides, Josh is much more fun after 10 drinks, not just one.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Junior:

[ QUOTE ]
1. Their daisy-chained triple+ must-move game system sucks majorly,

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. I've talked to some of the management there about how bad must moves are but it doesn't do any good. Part of the problem is that some of the regular players insist on having must move.

[ QUOTE ]
4. (and this is the big one folks) their staff is often times not very friendly at all, and it's quite obvious that since they don't need your business, they're not going to bend over backwards very far for you (unless maybe you're one of their cronies who grease the right wheels). This is not only my personal experience, but the sentiment of many of my poker friends and acquaintances. Whether this is an "absolute truth" or not is debatable, but it's certainly a common perception amongst frequent vegas card players.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. But I'm playing higher limit than you are and so I'm dealing with different staff members than you are.

Best wishes,
Mason

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. But I'm playing higher limit than you are and so I'm dealing with different staff members than you are.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason,

How high are you talking? Even when I was playing $80/$160 there they were pretty big douchebags to me. I know some of the other guys who play in that game have had different results and my sample size is admittedly small (they are, however, always assholes to me at $30/60 without fail).

[TStoneMBD]

if the floor is treating you well its probably because youre mason malmuth just as they wouldnt treat phil ivey with disrespect.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe they're just giving you back a little bit of your money so you'll have enough to come back for the next magoofest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason, let's be realistic now. They're not giving him THAT much money. And it's not even close. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If you understand the inner workings of cardrooms, you know that the actual difference in "rake or time charge received per player per hour" is small, often pushing the bounds of negligable. The proportionate cost of playing cards goes WAY down as you go up in stakes. I've seen the rakes and time charges for different games across the country, at all levels of play. These aren't really news to anyone, so I shant state specific examples here. You can do the math just as easily as I can, it gets really cheep as you go up in stakes, and the house's hourly take per game barely increases at all as the stakes go up. Therefore I really don't have a lot of tolerance for bad (or even different) treatment of certain players over others, whether I'm playing 3-6 limit, 5-5 no limit, 15-30, 80-160, 10-25 no limit, or 200-400 limit.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore I really don't have a lot of tolerance for bad (or even different) treatment of certain players over others, whether I'm playing 3-6 limit, 5-5 no limit, 15-30, 80-160, 10-25 no limit, or 200-400 limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally players that pay the most rake get the least back from the room.

[afish]

Why would you possibly have a daisy chain must move? I can understand the need for a must move table when you think a new table might not be stable. But if you're adding a third table, just turn the second table into a main game and have the third table be a must move feeding the other two tables. That is the way I've always seen it in AC.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi TStone:

The problem with that argument is that I've been around for a lot of years and I've known many of the floor people for a long time and they have always treated me well.

I do agree that if I go someplace I'm not usually at and they do realize who I am I will often get very good treatment because of that. But that's not what I'm basing my argument on here.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally players that pay the most rake get the least back from the room.


[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. It just sucks that no one, including the almightly leaders of the great bellagio, has realized that this is a BAD thing.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Generally players that pay the most rake get the least back from the room.


[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. It just sucks that no one, including the almightly leaders of the great bellagio, has realized that this is a BAD thing.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not directed at any particular room, but at the industry in general.

Poker suffers from a serious problem. Most poker rooms are seperate from the main casino in that the poker staff is at least as likely to side with the player's best interest as teh casino's best interest. What this often means is the floorstaff will take care of the high limit player that rarely plays (and doesn't pay all that much rake anyway) and ignore the low limit player that plays every day (or at least a lot). The difference is often that the high limit player will give the staff a meaningful tip.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you possibly have a daisy chain must move? I can understand the need for a must move table when you think a new table might not be stable. But if you're adding a third table, just turn the second table into a main game and have the third table be a must move feeding the other two tables. That is the way I've always seen it in AC.

[/ QUOTE ]

One reason I've heard is daytime nits never want to see multiple games without a must move because they NEVER want an established game to be short (even though they do little to make the game fun or full of action).

The nit worries that there will be no more must move when the must move game breaks (when there are three or more games). Their solution - daisy chain the must moves. What they (and management who listens to them) don't understand is that daisy chained must moves often give the action player such as my Hero/GF a reason to leave the game as described in this post (http://tinyurl.com/bv4te) elsewhere in this thread.

If you absolutely have to have a must move at all times there is a better way to keep one. When the must move game breaks have the next newest game cut cards for a new must move. Hawaiian Gardens uses this method for their 500 and 300 buy-in NL games and I've never seen a complaint or problem. Both of these games are seeing rapid growth.

~ Rick

PS Note that the biggest action cardroom in the world (Commerce) takes the must move off ASAP on their mid limit games (20/40 and 40/80 holdem). When games break down late at night, it's usually the worst game that breaks first. This is what a cardroom should want since the remaining games are the better games (thus attracting or keeping more customers in the long run).

When the Bike had three 20/40 holdem games in a daisy chain on several occasions action players told me they were going back to Commerce where they wouldn't be "must moved to death". Of course this is no longer a problem as the Bike rarely has three 20/40 holdem games.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
The nit worries that if the must move game breaks when there are three or more games, there will be no must move. Their solution - daisy chain the must moves. What they don't understand is that daisy chained must moves often give the action player such as my Hero/GF a reason to leave the game as described in this post elsewhere in this thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Somthing that you are touching on is why Biologist sometimes take game theory now (this is coming from an econ/game theory point of view, I dont' know anything about biology programs excpet sometimes their majors show upu in game theory classes). Thing in nature (or a poker room) evolve as if they were aware of a game theory solution evne though they have no knowledge of it. The action players go to Commerce because the players school together so that none of them get punished too much. The nits go to the Bike becasue the Bike has lower rake and drives away the action players so the nits won't get run over. Nobody involved in this plans to do it this way, but when an action palyer goes to teh Bike they lose faster (and dont' ahve as much fun) so they go to Commerce. When a nit goes to Commerce they encounter more action than they like so they go to the Bike.

I know Rick is goign to cringe when I saw this, but I think when rooms raise the rake they make the games better. The nits will complain and go look for another game making the game more pleasant for everyone (note: the Commerce has plenty of action, so I do not believe they would benefit from raising the rake). In high rake markets (Commerce, also some midwestern states that take 10% to $5 in small games) the players behave as if they are trying to outrun the rake because the players that don't like the rake are driven from the market forcing large pots where the large rake becomes less of an issue.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Larry:

While I agree with you that The Wynn will spread any game any limit, it's also one of the reasons why their room has not done as well as it should. We have had much discussion on this topic before,

best wishes,
mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are wrong on this one. In fact, I would argue that part of the reason it is doing as well as it is, is because of bad rules at the Bellagio. In particular, the terrible $200 max buy-in at the Bellagio has all but handed the no limit market to the Wynn. They don't get as many 10-20 games, but the 2-5NL game with no max buy in is a staple there. This has in turn fed daily 5-10 games and a fairly regular 10-20.

Now that they are finally running tournaments on a daily basis (something I recommended to them regularly), the room is really thriving. I have come to the conclusion that while they definitely had personnel issues which drove away the 40-80, in the end there isn't enough upper mid-limit critical mass in the town anyways, so that one game really isn't a huge loss for the room. Ultimately, I think they'll get that one back too, provided there is really enough demand. Upper mid-limit has always been a struggle in more than one room, and with the huge popularity of NL now, it's still the case.

[Clarkmeister]

Katherine (with a K) is a floor supervisor who, frankly, sucks. In a room with tremendous customer service, she is a bad egg. Recently, they moved her to back of house duty for much of the week because of it. She substitutes as swing supervisor when Cathleen is off duty.

Cathleen (with a C) is the most competant, professional and customer friendly poker shift manager I have ever seen anywhere.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi TStone:

I understood that the game requested was a $10-$20 mixed game and not a $4-$8.

The Bellagio is concious of not spreading certain limit games because they feel, and I agree, that it can damage some of the games at other close limits that they regularly spread. However, I don't thin a $10-$20 mixed game would have this effect.

The Wynn is now spreading it and if it does get popular there, I wouldn't be surprised to see The Bellagio having it at some time in the future. However, it doesn't go all the time at The Wynn, so I wouldn't hold your breath (so to speak).

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been going pretty regularly in the evenings now and has even made it through the night on occaison. I'm surprised but excited it's done as well as it has given that we almost never play any holdem. 10/20 is a perfect limit for a beginner mixed game I think, especially for me. It's high enough that I want to play well, but low enough that I can learn new games without haveing to risk a large amount. I know several other players who play holdem for bigger stakes that love playing in that game for those reasons.

Also, it's 10/20 so even the players who know what they're doing aren't that good.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
The action players go to Commerce because the players school together so that none of them get punished too much. The nits go to the Bike because the Bike has lower rake and drives away the action players so the nits won't get run over. Nobody involved in this plans to do it this way, but when an action palyer goes to teh Bike they lose faster (and dont' ahve as much fun) so they go to Commerce. When a nit goes to Commerce they encounter more action than they like so they go to the Bike.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the 20/40 holdem level, the Bike and Commerce drop are the same (although the Bike probably reduces rake more when the game is short). But the Bike's "rewards program" certainly attracts a base of player's looking for that $5 per hour edge.

[ QUOTE ]
I know Rick is goign to cringe when I saw this, but I think when rooms raise the rake they make the games better. The nits will complain and go look for another game making the game more pleasant for everyone (note: the Commerce has plenty of action, so I do not believe they would benefit from raising the rake). In high rake markets (Commerce, also some midwestern states that take 10% to $5 in small games) the players behave as if they are trying to outrun the rake because the players that don't like the rake are driven from the market forcing large pots where the large rake becomes less of an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be surprised that I agree. Virtually all of my efforts arguing for reduced drop have been targeted toward situations where there is no flop (or fourth street in stud), a short game, or no action post flop. For example, in a smaller game such as 3/6 holdem, I would key the full drop on having a called bet post flop - reducing the $3 drop on a $7 pot when there is only one limper and one uncalled post flop bet takes it down.

Also note that certain games are very sensitive to how drop is taken. A prime example is split pot stud games such as 20/40 stud/8. I was able to convince Bike management to take a "modified drop" of only 50 cents when the action didn't get to fourth street. The Bike soon took all the customers in this part of town for this game (essentially from the Commerce). The fact that the Bike's 20/40 stud/8 has tailed off a bit is in part due their daisy chaining of must moves.

Years ago when Crystal Park applied a $5 time drop (per half hour) to all upper section games (when others would collect as much as $9 for the same game), their fate was sealed. The games became a haven for nits, until the nits discovered they didn't like playing with other nits.

~ Rick

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Katherine (with a K) is a floor supervisor who, frankly, sucks. In a room with tremendous customer service, she is a bad egg. Recently, they moved her to back of house duty for much of the week because of it. She substitutes as swing supervisor when Cathleen is off duty.

Cathleen (with a C) is the most competant, professional and customer friendly poker shift manager I have ever seen anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, she is. During last week's big trip she gave my group some of the best and most personal treatment I've ever received anywhere in my life. The Bellagio staff on the other hand treated us extremely poorly.

[bigfishead]

Interesting Dave, that you think the $200 max buy-in is THAT much of a defecit to Bellagio. Commonly during the week there are at least 3 games going and weekends 5-6. While I think it should be higher, like 300-500 but with the minimum of $200, there are good reasons for capped buy-in baby nl games like these.

Over the long haul, the benefit to capped buy-in small blind NL is for the customers as well as the casino . To understand this tho we MUST look at it objectively from both the business(cardroom) and player view point. NOT just as a better player who will bust weakies quicker.

NL busts the weak players far quicker than limit. This has been proven over years of experience. Just look at California, especially SF Bay Area in the 80's( prior to HE/stud games being allowed) where the game of choice was NL single draw Lowball. There was never a cap buy-in. And it broke people fast...games didnt last as long and were not being re-filled with live ones as often because they got broke so fast. Management saw this 10 fold as soon as holdem the action game started to be spread. A game that should have lasted 10-12 hrs would go for 3.

Many of the older cardrooms were reluctant to spread a NL game for many many years after that. Lucky Chances in SF area opened around 1998 I think it was and spread a 10-10-20 blinds, 40 to go NL, 2-3 days a week. But this is a BIG game...entirely different. And it was populated by people that had huge deep pockets. Yet they refused to spread a smaller nl for many years.

Untill the boom

How can we keep our regular lower limit players that want to play nl and also attract the new blood but not break them so fast that the game doesnt survive? Capp the buy-in! Dont let them go broke so fast.

Card rooms, to survive, MUST have fresh money coming into the game or the game doesnt last. Simple mathematics, the drop. I think we all understand that. So a very important aspect to keeping fresh money comin in is to also be attractive in the sense of not being a huge threat to break the new player in an hour. Certainly there are also finer points which could be added to this picture to attract the new player but lets forgo those for this discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Larry:

While I agree with you that The Wynn will spread any game any limit, it's also one of the reasons why their room has not done as well as it should. We have had much discussion on this topic before,

best wishes,
mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason,

While I agree that the casino can't just spread any limit of a game inbetween set ones they will spread (i.e. 4/8, 8/16 , and 15/30), but they don't. It's not like you can start a 10/20 limit hold'em game at the wynn. It has to be something new that has the interest of a full table. The room isn't full anyways and there is room when these games get going usually in the middle of the night (which is how the 10/20 mix game got invented). How does allowing to spread things such as 4/8 Crazy Pineapple hi/lo w/ a full kill if there is room and interest a bad thing?

I am just saying people know what they can get at wynn for sure if they are limit or NL player. There are set limits which are always spread for the two games people come to play. How does adding these games hurt?

LD.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Katherine (with a K) is a floor supervisor who, frankly, sucks. In a room with tremendous customer service, she is a bad egg. Recently, they moved her to back of house duty for much of the week because of it. She substitutes as swing supervisor when Cathleen is off duty.

Cathleen (with a C) is the most competant, professional and customer friendly poker shift manager I have ever seen anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, she is. During last week's big trip she gave my group some of the best and most personal treatment I've ever received anywhere in my life. The Bellagio staff on the other hand treated us extremely poorly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Among the regulars at Wynn, we all love Cathleen the most.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
How does allowing to spread things such as 4/8 Crazy Pineapple hi/lo w/ a full kill if there is room and interest a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is a regular game taht is fine. What happens if you spread a game that isn't normally spread is it pulls players from a regular game. When your regular players come in to play their regular game and it isn't there because some game started that won't be there tommorrow you have hurt the room.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How does allowing to spread things such as 4/8 Crazy Pineapple hi/lo w/ a full kill if there is room and interest a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is a regular game taht is fine. What happens if you spread a game that isn't normally spread is it pulls players from a regular game. When your regular players come in to play their regular game and it isn't there because some game started that won't be there tommorrow you have hurt the room.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why a game like that is spread at an agreed upon time, once or twice a week in almost all instances. It is a game that is a break for most of the players from the bigger games they usually play.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How does allowing to spread things such as 4/8 Crazy Pineapple hi/lo w/ a full kill if there is room and interest a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is a regular game taht is fine. What happens if you spread a game that isn't normally spread is it pulls players from a regular game. When your regular players come in to play their regular game and it isn't there because some game started that won't be there tommorrow you have hurt the room.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why a game like that is spread at an agreed upon time, once or twice a week in almost all instances. It is a game that is a break for most of the players from the bigger games they usually play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes spreading a game when there is scheduled interest works well, if there is enough interest to support it. I have seen too many times when a room is slow some players interested in playing something other than what is normally spread will get the room to spread it. Then as players come in to play they play this "other" game, and the regular game never gets started (or is weaker than usual). There is nothing wrong with spreading other games, but generally the rooms that let the players dictate what is spread will not do as well as the rooms that make a concious decision about what to spread (assuming they are competant and understand their market).

[Barry]

I've been away for a few days visiting my in-laws in New Orleans...

I don't know what proceded the request for a game, but I'm not Mason, but I do go to Vegas a few times a year and stay at the Bellagio.

I have always been treated pretty well by almost all of the staff that work the mid limit desk. (if Nate is the guy with the shaved head, he is the exception.) My wife plays 8/16 there and she is happy with the treatment that she gets.

I don't know, perhaps it's a more a matter of reaping what you sow.

Plus the 30/60 game there rocks!

[Clarkmeister]

I'm well aware of all these arguments. I don't think they hold water very well. But we can debate it next time I see you as I don't want to write an expose on it.

And the fact is that the fish prefer the no cap buy-in also. Wynn spreads more 2/5 games than Bellagio on a daily basis despite struggling to compete at basically any other game. There's a reason for that.

And the Bellagio issue is specifically the $200 buy in. It's a TERRIBLE amount for that game. 100x the BB is the bare minimum that should be alowed. If they allowed $500-$700, I don't think it would be an issue. $200 in that game is a joke.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
In particular, the terrible $200 max buy-in at the Bellagio has all but handed the no limit market to the Wynn. They don't get as many 10-20 games, but the 2-5NL game with no max buy in is a staple there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely true. Bellagio's $200 max game sucks. "Other problems" having to do with bellagio don't need to be re-hashed again here. Wynn's games are consistently kick ass. This includes both the 1-3 and 2-5 games, both of which I play regularly. I see 5-10 going fairly often, but I don't play that high, I'm mostly happy being a "big fish in a small pond." /images/graemlins/grin.gif In addition wynn uses $2 chips for $8-$16, which is the "ONLY WAY TO GO, AND IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE."

In addition, wynn has been a very pleasant place to play in virtually all aspects. Thusfar I haven't really found many things to complain about there*, and I never have trouble finding a game I want to be in either.

al

*well my aces got cracked once, but that was the stupid dealer's fault /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How does allowing to spread things such as 4/8 Crazy Pineapple hi/lo w/ a full kill if there is room and interest a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is a regular game taht is fine. What happens if you spread a game that isn't normally spread is it pulls players from a regular game. When your regular players come in to play their regular game and it isn't there because some game started that won't be there tommorrow you have hurt the room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although you have a "theoretical" point, I hardly think it will ever be as bad as this. Being flexible is good to a cardroom, but keeping a general set of regular games is also good. Moderation and good judgement, COMBINED with a need to please and flexibility are perhaps greater still to the long term health of a cardroom.

Take MGM for instance. We have magoo fest there. Sure, magoo fest only happens now and then, and we go TOTALLY against the norm of what they usually spread. But in the long run, they get TONS of publicity from it, many satisfied customers, plus many of us play a LOT at the MGM outside of magoo fest, including many of us that would play a great deal elsewhere (except for magoo fest). Funny, but their regular games last saturday night didn't seem to be "totally killed to the detriment and anguish of all" because of magoo fest's presence in the room. Rather about a dozen of us played all night, even after magoo fest ended. Hell, I went home to feed / take out my dogs, then went BACK to MGM in the middle of the night, along with four friends!

Did I already mention reasonableness and flexibility as being ASSETTS to cardrooms?

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
And the Bellagio issue is specifically the $200 buy in. It's a TERRIBLE amount for that game. 100x the BB is the bare minimum that should be alowed. If they allowed $500-$700, I don't think it would be an issue. $200 in that game is a joke.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, $200 max sucks ASS, but then try adding the triple+ daisy-chained must-move system (nit jerkoff local A-hole heaven, from hell). "Horrid" just turned to a bucket full of lukewarm puke, rotting in the texas sun. Note the consistent LACK of my presence in that game. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Randy_Refeld]

Magoo Fest is a special event. It brought palyers in that wouldn't otherwise be playing so it shoulnd't hurt the regular games. In todays market there are more palyers to spread more games. I am thinking of the small room that breaks down at night or gets down to 1 or 2 games.

I learned this lesson the hard way when I was pretty new on the floor. A coupel of hours before our $1-$2 blind NL game was ready to start a very small (3) group came in and said they would go ahead and start the game if we added a 50 cent ante. I was seeing they want to play it and i have dealers and tables so I spread it. Now the regular players come in and I see the error of my ways. I went over to the table apologized, told them I made a mistake letting the game start, but starting next hand there would be no ante. Needless to say the 3 that came in and helped start the game were not happy, but I learned never to make that mistake again. If a large group comes in and wants to play a semi-private game hey can play pretty much whatever they want, but if a small group comes in and starts a game that is going to tthreaten a regular game they can't play it. A lot of people working in poker rooms today are not able to exercise good judgment as to which games should be started so they are given a set of rules to follow. When I started in tehis business I believed let the players play what they want, I have since learned that isn't the best way to do it.

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]


In addition wynn uses $2 chips for $8-$16, which is the "ONLY WAY TO GO, AND IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE."





[/ QUOTE ]

NO QUESTION !! I have said that for YEARS. Without $2 chips the game sucks in comparison. Why the hell LV casinos wont learn from Calif on these things is beyond me. If Mirage spread a 9-18 with $3 chips it would be a game TWICE as populated with fishies with pots 3x as big as the 10-20 they currently spread and would have multiple games lasting longer.