22: AKo reraise on dead flop

[gildwulf]

Early in tourney so no solid reads yet.

***** Hand History for Game 3000222178 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:17229938 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, November 07, 23:22:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 69758 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: amaverick922 ( $535 )
Seat 2: typhoon4 ( $480 )
Seat 3: mikedog12 ( $1050 )
Seat 5: ControlAgent ( $2195 )
Seat 6: slinky1616 ( $740 )
Seat 7: ferro_fox ( $730 )
Seat 8: DonkStrike_ ( $775 )
Seat 9: WrigleysXtra ( $765 )
Seat 10: gildwulf ( $730 )
Trny:17229938 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to gildwulf [ Ac Kd ]
DonkStrike_ folds.
WrigleysXtra folds.
>You have options at Table 66778 Table!.
gildwulf raises [90].
amaverick922 folds.
typhoon4 folds.
mikedog12 folds.
ControlAgent folds.
slinky1616 calls [75].
ferro_fox calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, 6d, 9h ]
slinky1616 checks.
ferro_fox bets [30].
gildwulf raises [125].

[gildwulf]

bump

[jedinite]

Edit: bah, not sure how I got confused, thought you were doing the min-bet leading on the flop and being re-raised.

This is a pretty standard line for me with AK, a missed flop, and betting impetus still in my court. This early I'll most often (98%+) then let it go if my opponent pushes over the top.

[splashpot]

I think you misunderstand the flop action.

[gildwulf]

Edit: nm you changed your post

[jedinite]

Yeah I was retarded a minute ago. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Totally misread the hand history.

[rbear]

Well, it's obvious the BB hit this flop a)big time or b) not at all. I like the reraise, because I really think villians response to this will tell you where you are. You can easily back off here if opponent calls/raises, and may take it down right here.

[tripdad]

it looks to me like you're getting a great price to just call here. and you should have a general read on the opponent after playing at least 11 hands with him/her.

don't forget also, that you have another player yet to act.

[J-Lo]

in 800 chip games vs 2 callers, raising here is suicide...

callign here is NOT bad... would u bet if it was checked to u? i wouldn't vs 2 villains... and make a real raise if u are gonna raise...

Losing only 120 chips this hand ISN'T bad...

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
in 800 chip games vs 2 callers, raising here is suicide...

callign here is NOT bad... would u bet if it was checked to u? i wouldn't vs 2 villains... and make a real raise if u are gonna raise...

Losing only 120 chips this hand ISN'T bad...

[/ QUOTE ]

i would certainly make a bet if checked to me.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
it looks to me like you're getting a great price to just call here. and you should have a general read on the opponent after playing at least 11 hands with him/her.

don't forget also, that you have another player yet to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

After playing 11 hands with a person yes I usually have a read. After being dealt 11 hands in a 10 person game where neither of us has gone to showdown and I haven't played a hand with him, this is different.

I am also aware there is another person next to act...

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
in 800 chip games vs 2 callers, raising here is suicide...

callign here is NOT bad... would u bet if it was checked to u? i wouldn't vs 2 villains... and make a real raise if u are gonna raise...

Losing only 120 chips this hand ISN'T bad...

[/ QUOTE ]

I raised half the pot...

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's obvious the BB hit this flop a)big time or b) not at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. I've found just the opposite to be the case. Usually a bet like this means that villian is trying to name his own price to see the turn. Usually this is something like a weak draw (gut shot, bad flush draw, etc) or a mediocre made hand looking for a cheap sd.

Lucky for both of us that we want to see the turn cheap as well.

[Nick M]

Your avatar is amazing...ohhh yeah Fold.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's obvious the BB hit this flop a)big time or b) not at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. I've found just the opposite to be the case. Usually a bet like this means that villian is trying to name his own price to see the turn. Usually this is something like a weak draw (gut shot, bad flush draw, etc) or a mediocre made hand looking for a cheap sd.

Lucky for both of us that we want to see the turn cheap as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thinking exactly.

[rbear]

Guess I need to spend less time at the 11's and MTT qualifiers, as I see donk moves like this with this range repeatedly at both places. Also, I consider such draws or low pair to be not hitting the flop at all.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I consider such draws or low pair to be not hitting the flop at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a pretty big qualifier.

[rbear]

Is it semantically pick apart the noob post day? Point was I liked the reraise because it gives you more info.

[bones]

Nobody is picking on you. Excellent poker players pay attention to detail, whether it's on the table or discussing hands.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it semantically pick apart the noob post day? Point was I liked the reraise because it gives you more info.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry:)

[rbear]

point taken. good luck and good night.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Your avatar is amazing...ohhh yeah Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused by this post.

[Nick M]

FOLD

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
FOLD

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold on the flop? Seriously? Please explain.

[Nick M]

you have ace high, you could be drawing dead, with your raise you are committing 1/3 of your stack with nothing and a player still to act, player could have a draw and is now getting 4.5 to 1 on the call. So you must raise more...now you are raising half your stack with ace high, and what do you do when he pushes over you? You want to push raise, you can push i guess. But I don't flat raise here...and i defintely don't under any circumstances call. Thats just pissing away chips.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
you have ace high, you could be drawing dead, with your raise you are committing 1/3 of your stack with nothing and a player still to act, player could have a draw and is now getting 4.5 to 1 on the call. So you must raise more...now you are raising half your stack with ace high, and what do you do when he pushes over you? You want to push raise, you can push i guess. But I don't flat raise here...and i defintely don't under any circumstances call. Thats just pissing away chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ace high on a 469 rainbow board actually has a pretty solid chance of being the best hand.

If SB and BB call with 30% of hands (55+, A2s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o, J9o+, T9o) We have a 34.4% equity in this pot.

If we tighten up the SB and BB and have SB call with 10% (77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo+) and BB call with 20% (66+, A4s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo+) we have a 34% equity in this pot.

Even if we make the SB and BB squeaky tight....8% of hands from BB (88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+) and 15% (77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+) we still have 33% equity in this pot.

Against almost all of the draws on the board AKo is still a favorite or at worst a slight underdog.

As far as I'm concerned the only possibilities are to raise and call.

Raising, IMHO, is better than calling because you have a solid chance to knock out a hand like A4 or T8 that could give you some problems later on in the hand. If I knock out the big blind in the last example (SB 8%, BB 15%), this bumps my equity to 54% vs. hands like 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, and AJo+. Raising is +EV in this situation.

Raising is also great because you have position on the original raiser and if he calls he will most likely check the turn. Now you have the possibility of a free card and a cheap showdown.

As for the amount to raise, pushing here is absolutely terrible. You are only going to get called by strong dominating hands like A9 or K9 or hands like a strong draw and a pair. This is awful, awful awful especially when a smaller bet (say half the size of the pot which is what I did) accomplishes everything I want in a raise anyways. And if he pushes here I can get away from the hand with more than 500 chips.

Your argument against calling is absurd when taking into account your argument for raising. This guy bets 30 chips into a 270 chip pot! If you are saying my raise is terrible because I gave him 4.5 to 1, how can you possibly say calling is bad when he is giving me 10 to 1???

Peace,
Zach

[Nick M]

i will try to explain myself better...

First and foremost, there is more to winning than ICMs, hand calling ranges and percentage equity. Just because something is profitable by a percentage stand point, doesn't mean it is the correct play.

secondly, i do think you're doing the hand ranges very strangely...if villian calls with 98s, he calls with 87, 76, 56...they are essentially the same hand.

thirdly, the point I made about your raise is very important. You are giving him 4.5 to 1 here...would you call with a good draw? Yes. But if villian has an opponent ended draw he has 14 outs, not 8. And especially if you take the line you suggested if he calls, which he should with a draw. You are looking for a cheap show down, so you're going to give him a free river to with his great turn odds?

As far as pushing is concerned, think about this. If you put your opponent on a draw, he is 51% to win i think...He whould lay down the draw, because he doesn't know he has 6 more outs. It's very simple...if you feel he has a draw then you push him out. If you're worried about pushing because he might have a set, then you're just strengthing my arguement for folding. Yes i still advicate folding here not pushing. I am just trying to explain the pushing play.

and last but not least, calling. BLLAAAHHHHH. Do you play suited connectors???? If the answer is yes, than I understand why you'd think calling here is fine getting 10 to 1, when its about 8 to 1 to hit. This draw here is even worse than a draw you'd see with suited connectors. Just a tip from me to you, fold every suited connector you get preflop, no matter what position, no matter what odds, they are worthless. Drawing for chips is bad. if the odds are 8 to 1 then about 88% of the time you are pissing away money. This means that only 12% of the time this play becomes profitable, and probably not even that, because you could be drawing dead. Imagine drawing and catch an ace, getting all the money in drawing dead to his set? oh god.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
First and foremost, there is more to winning than ICMs, hand calling ranges and percentage equity. Just because something is profitable by a percentage stand point, doesn't mean it is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is essentially a copout argument. I by no means suggest that percentages and numbers should always be used and sometimes, yea, you have to go with your gut. But your gut is wrong. Folding is wrong here and any respected poster on the board will agree with me on this. I used percentages and numbers to back up my argument with evidence (a novel concept) of how frustratingly and embarassingly wrong you are. You have to accept this and learn from it.

In the few posts I've seen of yours, you demonstrate the following: 1) a fundamental lack of understanding of basic poker theory; 2) unjustified cockiness and extreme rudeness to other posters; 3) a close-mindedness towards a scientific approach to the game; and 4) an inability to admit when you are simply not correct.

I appreciate your enthusiasm to post and I'm sorry if this was harsh, but bad advice supported by bad arguments dilutes the potential of this forum and you are the biggest offender.

Zach

[Nick M]

to each his own...