Using a min-raise in PLO

[Tilt]

joewatch said in another thread that there is no place for the min-raise in PLO. I disagree, I think that PLO is one of the few poker games where there is a place for the min-raise.

Right after I read that this hand came up. What do people think of the min raise here?

100 PLO, $1-$1 blinds

Stacks: Villain in SB $117, Me in BB $131, Limper $164, preflop aggressor $180.

Villain SB is often very aggressive on the turn with semi-bluffs.

Hero is BB with As Jh 4s Kh

1 limper, tricky aggressive player in CO raises to $5, SB villain calls, I call, limper calls.

Flop (Pot = $20) 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif
Villain checks, I check, limper checks, preflop raiser checks

Turn 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Villain bets $11, I min raise to $22, everyone folds, villain calls

River (pot = $62) 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Villain checks, I pot it, he folds.

[beset7]

what does min-raising accomplish here that a 1/2 to 3/4 PSB doesn't do better? Not a rhetorical question i just would like to hear you justify it. Obviously it worked here but what does that tell us?

The one thing I can think of is that it left you enough money to bluff bigger on the river.

I for one don't like to talk in absolute so I wouldn't say that there is no place for min raising in PLO period. But I rarely min raise. In this spot if I was going to make a move it would have been stronger. But that's consistent with my overall style. Having an integrated game is the important thing to me. Maybe min-raising fits in with your style.

But, there is this little thing about giving draws nice odds. Also, as you move up, people will not let you get away this very often.

[Tilt]

I need cheap information. Do the people behind me have a wheel? Does the Villain? But the min-raise makes it hard for them to make amove on me, cause it suggests that I have either the wheel or a set that whiffed a c/r on the flop.

When he calls the min raise I know he is on a flush draw, and its a decent one. He is a reasonably tight player, but he called the preflop raise, so I suspect that he has a pair in his hand as well or some connected cards higher than 34. I am pretty sure he has like KcTcTxX after that, or like Qc8c9xX. If not, he has two pair, but i can drive him off that on the river if I get him solo.

The point is that sometimes the min raise is the best way to gather information without letting the pot get too big. And if you use it for this purpose but sometimes mix it in with the impenetrable nuts, its a tool worth employing. More so in PLO I think than in NLHE because pot control is so important.

[beset7]

Well-written post but doesn't answer my question really. Doesn't a bigger raise get you the same information with more fold equity when your behind and more value when your ahead?

I think if information is the only goal of a raise its a bad idea. Maybe you get away with that here but higher up the guy with the FD is going to gas it when you min-raise and smile as he drags another pot from you.

[joewatch]

If a club had fallen on the river, you would have been very sad that you minraised.

[Acesover8s]

The problem in learning poker lies in the fact that you are frequently rewarded by winning the pot in hands you misplay.

You price in a lot of hands here that would not call a bigger bet, as well as minimize your value against hands that would've called a bigger bet anyway.

You misplayed the flop and river as well. You suffer from a sever case of FPS.

[joewatch]

This post has nothing to do with poker, I just wanted to say that is a damn good-looking cat.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[beset7]

I just realized we need that british guy to join this thread and defend small bets

[ QUOTE ]
You suffer from a sever case of FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, I'll bite. What's FPS?

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You suffer from a sever case of FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, I'll bite. What's FPS?

[/ QUOTE ]

fancy play syndrome

[TheRempel]

And if an observant player notices you minraise against flush draws, they will be willing to stay in with far weaker draws so that they can crack your inveitable pot size bet on the river.

[RoundTower]

[ QUOTE ]
joewatch said in another thread that there is no place for the min-raise in PLO. I disagree, I think that PLO is one of the few poker games where there is a place for the min-raise.

Right after I read that this hand came up. What do people think of the min raise here?

100 PLO, $1-$1 blinds

Stacks: Villain in SB $117, Me in BB $131, Limper $164, preflop aggressor $180.

Villain SB is often very aggressive on the turn with semi-bluffs.

Hero is BB with As Jh 4s Kh

1 limper, tricky aggressive player in CO raises to $5, SB villain calls, I call, limper calls.

Flop (Pot = $20) 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif
Villain checks, I check, limper checks, preflop raiser checks

Turn 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Villain bets $11, I min raise to $22, everyone folds, villain calls

River (pot = $62) 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Villain checks, I pot it, he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you bet the river? If you are beaten he will probably call. If he had a draw, which is more likely, he will fold.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Well-written post but doesn't answer my question really. Doesn't a bigger raise get you the same information with more fold equity when your behind and more value when your ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good question.

A 3/4 or 1/2 pot bet gets me the same info, but at a higher price. If I am behind and he comes back over the top, I'll have to muck. And there's really no additional fold equity at that price. A PSB will have fold equity against a flush draw, but the price of that information is too high for me here with this hand in a 4 way.

If I am ahead, sure I may get a little more value, but by increasing the pot I have increased the leverage he will have if he decides to bluff the river. Do I really want to face an 80-100BB bet on the river with TPTK? But I am fine snapping off a smaller bluff with this.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
If a club had fallen on the river, you would have been very sad that you minraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Cause I have such a monster hand??? I can get out cheaply, and the decision on the river will be easy.

I wouldn't be nearly as sad as if I jack it up to $84 on the turn and he sets me on any river.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem in learning poker lies in the fact that you are frequently rewarded by winning the pot in hands you misplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with 2+2 is this kind of aloof didactic rudeness attached to no specific information.

[ QUOTE ]

You price in a lot of hands here that would not call a bigger bet, as well as minimize your value against hands that would've called a bigger bet anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course those are the drawbacks. You failed to address the advantages, namely that I haven't committed a lot of chips to learn exactly where I stand, and through pot control I have maintained the right to make the more forceful river bluff.


[ QUOTE ]

You misplayed the flop and river as well. You suffer from a sever case of FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain how. Though I actually agree with you on the river, I think its good form to actually state your case once in a while. Maybe other 2+2ers could learn from you if you did.

You seem to suffer from a sever[sic] case of 2+2 arrogance. I have made perhaps a dozen min-raises in my last 10,000 hands. Thats hardly FPS.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
And if an observant player notices you minraise against flush draws, they will be willing to stay in with far weaker draws so that they can crack your inveitable pot size bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is a rare case in this hand, so an observant player will have to play ALOT of hands to detect this. Obviously you want to charge the draw here; the issue is you have to balance that against charging right into the nuts when you don't know if your marginal hand is any good.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you bet the river? If you are beaten he will probably call. If he had a draw, which is more likely, he will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good question. I thought about checking or betting smaller, but I was afraid he might call with a better two pair. The drawback is that he's not paying off with anything that I beat.

[RickyG]

The potsize bet on the river seems to be the "oh [censored]" bet after the turn bet. I min-bet bluffed and he didnt fold so I am going to shove into this pot. I usually assume that min bets are bluffs at low limit, and it seems to have worked out for me so far. People not wanting to commit lots of chips in PLO and charge out draws are usually too afraid or ignorant to make a normal bet on a bluff.

Like using "Fire" in rock paper scissors, you should be only able to use this move once in your life. Now feel happy it worked, and dont try it again.

[Big Dave D]

I've been gone so long Im just the "british guy" now?

Shame on u /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I like small bets but hate miniraises, for all the reasons already stated.

Now Im playing NLHE, Im getting minirasies all the time and its driving me craaazy.

gl

dd

[beset7]

I figured the inflamatory disregard for your screen name might entice you to post! IT WORKED. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yeah I'm playing a lot of NLHE as well. Dealing with min-raises is a kind of speciality in that game. I think people min raise often because they are simply to lazy to enter an amount and don't want to push all-in.

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
Like using "Fire" in rock paper scissors, you should be only able to use this move once in your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you do that???

[PocketJokers72]

disclaimer: Far from expert @ PLO

Seems to me he already decided that this is a perfect play. Personally, I just used it as a mistake that I didn't have to make myself.

The only time I can see using a minraise is when holding the nuts, in position, and I think its the max the villian thats been betting into me will call. Any thoughts here?

[TheRempel]

If you're talking about on the river, then yeah, it is a decent raise. Generally if they will call a minraise they'll call a little more though. My standard value/bluff raise on the river is about 250% of their bet.