when it would be painfully obvious you have the nuts...

[mgsimpleton]

what do you do? you never bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($582.55)
Button ($1217)
SB ($2416)
BB ($1126)
Hero ($1364)
UTG+1 ($975)
MP1 ($715)
MP2 ($1339)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $10, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $50</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $40, MP2 calls $40, Button calls $40.

Flop: ($210) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($210) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $60</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $250</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $250, MP2 folds.

River: ($770) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks

[Allinlife]

how come no turn bet/

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
how come no turn bet/

[/ QUOTE ]

someone has a pieceof this board and if not someone will try to steal it since it is a big pot... my c/r havenot been getting respect (i wonder why im crazy as usual) so if one dude bets and another just calls and i c/r i think i can get called by one pair or two pair...

problem came when it came time to raise the raiser.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
how come no turn bet/

[/ QUOTE ]

Its never as obvious as it seems to you. I think it very likely you can 3 bet button and still get action.

The way you played it I like river check if you are confident he will bet river. Otherwise I prefer pot on river, looks like a bluff, may still get raised by a strong hand.

[Ulysses]

Don't like your turn or river play.

[Voltron87]

I hate it when people do stuff like what MP2 did and it gets in the way.

Otherwise I really like it, the check to him on the river is good I think.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how come no turn bet/

[/ QUOTE ]

Its never as obvious as it seems to you. I think it very likely you can 3 bet button and still get action.

The way you played it I like river check if you are confident he will bet river. Otherwise I prefer pot on river, looks like a bluff, may still get raised by a strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but thank you for saying absolutely nothing.

the point is what do you guys think the range and probabilities are here given action (no reads) and against that range is this the mostprofitable line?

[BobboFitos]

I think turn action is more interesting then riv;
both initial plan to c/r, and initial call or reraise the current situation.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't like your turn or river play.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool. care to elaborate, oh revered one? or should i just take it for whatit is and next time the exact samesituation arises ill make sure to play it differently?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't like your turn or river play.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool. care to elaborate, oh revered one? or should i just take it for whatit is and next time the exact samesituation arises ill make sure to play it differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

You said your checkraise is not getting respect, and here you have the nuts. Why on earth do you not want to put more action in on the turn? There are a ton of action-killers on the river. Your play makes no sense to me.

Edited to add: My general take on your play from your posts is that you go way overboard on trying to play all tricky and fancy.

[phil_ivey_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't like your turn or river play.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool. care to elaborate, oh revered one? or should i just take it for whatit is and next time the exact samesituation arises ill make sure to play it differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you check folding to a potish sized bet on a club/paired river? if so I think you need to pop the turn and find out how much he likes his hand.

[mgsimpleton]

when i check raise one bet it has not been getting respect. when someone bets and another guy raises (fwiw i think his range here is clubs or a stone cold bluff a huge amount of the time given the action to him... two checks around and a weak ass bet into this big pot) if i were to check raise here then it would get respect.

but this mostly has to do with this guy's range which really to me is a bluff too often to make a raise on the turn profitable.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't like your turn or river play.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool. care to elaborate, oh revered one? or should i just take it for whatit is and next time the exact samesituation arises ill make sure to play it differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you check folding to a potish sized bet on a club/paired river? if so I think you need to pop the turn and find out how much he likes his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

why the hell would i be worried about a paired river? i'm c/r all in on paired river and hoping he hit trips. a club river i was firing 2/3 and folding to all in.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]

Edited to add: My general take on your play from your posts is that you go way overboard on trying to play all tricky and fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh. i think these are generally just the hands i post because the other ones are so standard (i usually bet here on this turn and would thu snever post it) but thanks for the insight. i'll keep it in mind as it very well could be a leak.

why are you limping UTG w/ AQ?

why are you letting the river have a chance to get checked through?

I dont understand how you dont value bet this river....???



Tex

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont understand how you dont value bet this river....???



[/ QUOTE ]

i didn't know if my hand was good or not...

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
when i check raise one bet it has not been getting respect. when someone bets and another guy raises (fwiw i think his range here is clubs or a stone cold bluff a huge amount of the time given the action to him... two checks around and a weak ass bet into this big pot) if i were to check raise here then it would get respect.

but this mostly has to do with this guy's range which really to me is a bluff too often to make a raise on the turn profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
but coldcalling a bet and a raise sets off alarm bells too. you said you think he's on clubs or a stone bluff a high percentage of the time here; if he's on a pure bluff, i don't think he's firing again anyway after your turn play (very rarely, at least), but if he's on clubs then you want to put money into the pot while he's drawing live. i also think you lose value against pocket deuces or Q9s, the kind of hands he could've limped with on the button after a couple other limpers.

[mgsimpleton]

can someone throw out some likely hand ranges for button here please? this is sort of the point i'm trying to get at.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
can someone throw out some likely hand ranges for button here please? this is sort of the point i'm trying to get at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Q9, JT, JJ (maybe, whats his pfr like), AQ, air, maybe something like 8c9c making a play, i dunno

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
can someone throw out some likely hand ranges for button here please? this is sort of the point i'm trying to get at.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one who's any good checks this flop with a made hand. That turn bet by the initial raiser is also superweak, so it could be any 2 here, but let's assume the J helps, so:

jacks up, QJ, JJJ, straight, any two, in about that order?

[mgsimpleton]

well the turn betwas not the initial raiser, SB was the initial raiser. and this guy limped on the button so i cannot possibly give credit for a set other than a donk with 222. also since it was checked to him on the button in my mind he really can't have kings up since he bets a king on the flop on that board. so yeah i guess JT ispossible or like JQ or Q9... or i guess a club draw. but those are sort ofthe only hands... and how convenient that he has one of so few hands when he is on the button and no one has shown any interest in a decently sized pot. i think he is usually bluffing here.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
can someone throw out some likely hand ranges for button here please? this is sort of the point i'm trying to get at.

[/ QUOTE ]JT and Q9 are most likely hands... obviously, he could have anyhting... limped on button, raised pathetic weak bet in medium pot.
BTW/i like your play on all streets...

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
can someone throw out some likely hand ranges for button here please? this is sort of the point i'm trying to get at.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that the better question is, what do you think he will put you on that would cause you to cold call the turn raise, with the initial bettor left to act? If I'm the opponent, an alarm would go off in my head. So, unless he has you on a flush draw, I don't see how he is going to bet this river. I guess if he has a monster he might value bet it, but it doesn't seem like he has one given his action.

And if he is on a flush draw like you mentioned (I think), then by calling, if he hits you obviously lose money. If he misses, then given what I said above, he probably won't bluff here; so you make no extra money. I dunno, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[mgsimpleton]

also i checked on the turn because like i said my c/r were getting no respect. so check it out... in this pot by the point of two times checked around i think a club draw is going to take a stab... and a club draw is only thing to which my hand is vulnerable. so:

my c/r gets no credit meaning any legit hand that bets turn might very well call c/r

any draw by this point will stab and allow me to c/r

i also give room for bluffing which i think will happen a fair amount.

those are my reasons for c/r the turn take them for what they're worth.

i'd like an order of condescending with a large side of sarcasm.....


Okay, but why do you limp UTG here???

[Lucky]

I dont mind check on turn as long as you c/r big.

I usually dont have discipline to c/r tho, and probably weak lead hoping to get raised from someone representing the nuts.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I agree that if you're going for the check raise and then it has to become a reraise you should still put in another bet. The "alarm bells" as Blue put it, will be ringing regardless of which line you take-so which line is going to look most like a bluff?
Nobody calls to bluff the river with a player to act behind in huge pots, so a call and lead will be too suspicious.
Check-raise at least seems like it's somebody making a move.

As for check/call check/call I think it's going to be hard to get money in the pot unless villain is absolutely on a bluff-if a club comes on the river he'll be scared. If a club doesn't come he'll assume there's no point in betting since you probably missed your draw or have a monster.

I don't think your play here is bad at all. Nobody seems to have much on the flop.

Turn you get the nuts. Surely one of the two players behind you will take a stab at it, so you check with the intention to CR. That's fine. If you 3 bet the turn now when the action is back to you, you're basically turning your hand face up. Just calling at least gives some credibility that you're drawing, hoping that MP2 comes along for the ride. You do have the A/images/graemlins/club.gif so you know the other players could put you on the nut flush draw.

MP2s bet reeks of weakness so button has a good chance to just be on a steal. If he does have something like JT, there is no way he's going to call a 3bet. The only thing you have to figure out is, does he have a decent holding? If yes, better to value bet river. If no, better to give him a chance to bluff it. 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif got there on the river, and I can see him playing the hand that way so that would definitely value bet the river, so would Q9.

[mgsimpleton]

hey so i thought i'd post the results, eh... basically i checked he bet 600, i moved in for another 350 and he quickly folded. maybe this isn't what usually happens but basically the way it went down i would expect ANYONE to raise in that spot on the button given the action. so since i expect him to raise the probability is he doesn't have like one of 5 or so hands that are possible, so he usually h as a bluff. given that there is no value to doing anyting but letting him try again and besides if he doeshave a set or Q9 and the river bricks and i check, im stacking him anyway.

after talking to people and reading the thread i like my line but i think a weak lead on the river would have been better for when he does have some sort of crappy pair so i can get a call and so he will still be tempted to bluff all in. sometimes when i get int hse situations i auto check without thinking. but i do think after calling this turn, there is no option on the river other than checking or a very weak lead.