Hand ranges

[Evan]

Only relevant read is that CO is LAG, but that doesn't matter much since he gets all in on the flop.


Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $15.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO calls $9 (All-In), <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.73 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls.

River: (17.73 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.73 BB

[Derek123]

turn and river look good. Id be worried about him c/r you after the guy is all-in on the flop, seems like you are drawing to two outs there a lot.

[Surfbullet]

These types of hands leave me wondering...if I were a better player, would I fold the river? Or, would folding the river make me a better player? It's so hard to do anything but call getting 18:1, but I can't even figure out 1 hand that I'm ahead of or chopping with on the river.

Surf

[sweetjazz]

You're definitely not chopping here.

I think you could see J9, JT, 97 here. I'm assuming that UTG is an unknown, so he could be a nut job. Also, AA through JJ are all possible.

[El Ishmael]

[ QUOTE ]
These types of hands leave me wondering...if I were a better player, would I fold the river? Or, would folding the river make me a better player? It's so hard to do anything but call getting 18:1, but I can't even figure out 1 hand that I'm ahead of or chopping with on the river.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you read it a bit wrong /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. We have nines full so it's not like any bigger pair wins now. That said it doesn't look too good, but I'm nearly sure it's a call without doing the math.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These types of hands leave me wondering...if I were a better player, would I fold the river? Or, would folding the river make me a better player? It's so hard to do anything but call getting 18:1, but I can't even figure out 1 hand that I'm ahead of or chopping with on the river.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you read it a bit wrong /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. We have nines full so it's not like any bigger pair wins now. That said it doesn't look too good, but I'm nearly sure it's a call without doing the math.

[/ QUOTE ]

whooops. Way to read the board, Surf! In the words of Guy McSucker: In my defense, I have no defense.

Surf

[bugstud]

I think I generally click the raise button on the river and vomit all over the keyboard when he 3bets.

I am curious how often the guy will have QQ/KK/AA here, and didn't cap because he knew CO shorty would regardless.

[JDalla]

I like the raise/ vomit line here.

[Evan]

I'm not sure if this is right or not, but i'm going to throw it out there and see what you guys think: If it's right to raise the river then it's right to cap when he 3 bets.

Basically I'm saying that I don't think his hand range changes dramatically and since we can't get 5 bet capping is better than calling the 3 bet IF raising the first bet is better than calling.

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's right to raise the river then it's right to cap when he 3 bets.

Basically I'm saying that I don't think his hand range changes dramatically

[/ QUOTE ]

An idiot can bet the river with AT, AA, KK, but will probably not 3bet the river with these. I'm not saying that raising the river is correct (I can't decide). I's saying that his hand range does change.

Edited to add the quote.

[Evan]

I think he will 3 bet the river with AA/KK and sometimes with a T. Lots of bad players get into the "I have 8's full of tens, I RAISE!" mindset (queue the dinosaur image). Based on his turn play I think all of those hands with this type of player could definitely 3 bet the river enough to cap IF he has them enough to raise in the first place.

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he will 3 bet the river with AA/KK and sometimes with a T. Lots of bad players get into the "I have 8's full of tens, I RAISE!" mindset (queue the dinosaur image).

[/ QUOTE ]

With a T, ok, I can see that, but with AA/KK? I don't think anyone will three bet often after a capped turn. He did post UTG, so who knows.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think he will 3 bet the river with AA/KK and sometimes with a T. Lots of bad players get into the "I have 8's full of tens, I RAISE!" mindset (queue the dinosaur image).

[/ QUOTE ]

With a T, ok, I can see that, but with AA/KK? I don't think anyone will three bet often after a capped turn. He did post UTG, so who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]
You agree that he'll 3 bet 8's full of tens but not 8's full of aces? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

The obvious concern, as stated, is the UTG. With Hero's 3-bet preflop, UTG is laid 6.5 to 1 on his call--making a call with a range of A8/K8/78/89/8T appropriate. He will obviously not fold to a capped bet. The UTG check in the first round preflop indicates he probably doesn't have TT, the second nut we would worry about later in the hand.

The CO is insignificant as he gets his last 3/10th BB in on the flop. The UTG check 3-bet indicates he has at least an eight.

The nine on the turn gives Hero the second nut, worthy of capping. This street was played properly.

The eight on the river (this MUST be Party Poker, lol) is the worst card in the deck for Hero. The river call is entirely appropriate given the preflop range which has become more defined on the turn.

[Stack]

oops!

This hand plays itself from start to finish, and it plays exactly the way you did.

EDIT: there are so many ways in which the poster can hold an 8, you cannot possibly raise the river.

[MarkL444]

beware the UTG poster....

[Spicymoose]

Although he could have an 8, the fact that he check raises the flop makes this less likely IMO. It seems like the type of person who posted UTG would like to slowplay this and check raise the turn (not only people who posted UTG, but that fact makes it more likely). I'm guessing either AT or TT here, TT being more likely since at least most people would have the sense that 8s full of T is beat by what looks like your overpair.

[smartalecc5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These types of hands leave me wondering...if I were a better player, would I fold the river? Or, would folding the river make me a better player? It's so hard to do anything but call getting 18:1, but I can't even figure out 1 hand that I'm ahead of or chopping with on the river.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you read it a bit wrong /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. We have nines full so it's not like any bigger pair wins now. That said it doesn't look too good, but I'm nearly sure it's a call without doing the math.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait, nines full of Aces does not beat nines full of eights?? Yes? No? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[SomethingClever]

Does his hand range really even matter? There's no other way to play this thing, IMO.

I dont kwon if anyone else has commented on this and i'm not sure if you knew at the time but UTG is a poster here so he probably plays reasonable poker, which suggests that he doesnt have an 8. What hands limp UTG with an 8? Also does TT really limp here? I doubt it, so when you said a raise is like making it a cap, i'd be happy to cap here.

[SomethingClever]

If villain held AA, he would have eights full of aces, which would lose to nines full of eights.

[Crimson]

Hero has 9's full of 8's in this spot, while someone with a high PP would have 8's full of A's or K's.

Edit: I call on the river, because I dont enjoy vomiting.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont kwon if anyone else has commented on this and i'm not sure if you knew at the time but UTG is a poster here so he probably plays reasonable poker, which suggests that he doesnt have an 8. What hands limp UTG with an 8? Also does TT really limp here? I doubt it, so when you said a raise is like making it a cap, i'd be happy to cap here.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey HaveItAll,

UTG being a "poster" doesn't mean he posts on 2+2 - it means he posted a dead blind UTG(like the BB but in UTG's position). His hand could be literally any 2 when he checks his posted blind, and is actually worse than average when he opts not to raise.

Surf

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
I call on the river, because I dont enjoy vomiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your acceptance of certain challenges suggests otherwise.