Trouble wtih overcards, ultra loose table [Archive]

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11-07-2005, 09:37 PM

Looking at my stats I'm losing a lot of money on overcards, like AK-AJ and the like. I guess I'm going to far with them.

This is an incredibly loose table (25BB+ hand average) full of maniacs and fish. So I'm not sure how to react to the heavy reraise and multiple cap action.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 3 folds, CO calls, Button caps, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, CO folds, Button raises, UTG folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (16.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Button raises, Hero folds, UTG+2 3-bets, Button caps, UTG+2 calls.

River: (24.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 26.75 BB

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

(I only called here because I knew I'd get raised or even reraised anyway. Either way no one that called would have folded to a bet by me).

Flop: (9.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

11-07-2005, 09:49 PM

Hand 1: I fold when it's two back to me on the flop. It'd be different if I had a better back door draw.

Hand 2: I play it the same. You're drawing to the nut flush and holding overcards that should hold up if they pair.

numeri

11-07-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an incredibly loose table (25BB+ hand average) full of maniacs and fish.

[/ QUOTE ]
Be more specific. Who is what?

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Raise for value. Every time. Any table.

The rest is fine.

11-07-2005, 09:56 PM

everyone is way too loose. i'm not going to look up stats for 9 other players but it was incredibly LAGish.

my problem is when i miss with these i feel really lost, especially because the flop is getting capped usually. i end up losing a lot of cash.

Nick C

11-07-2005, 09:59 PM

Hand 1: Uncomfortable situations like this happen, when multiple maniacs are at the table.

I probably would have stuck around for four bets on the flop, like you did, and then would have given up on the turn.

The frustrating thing is, it's entirely possible the maniacs are trying to push you out of the hand and will slow down with their QJo and 66 once you're gone.

Edit: I should add that I think folding the flop when it's two to you might very well be best, if you pretty much know it's going to get capped behind you. I sometimes get stubborn, though, when I know the maniacs at the table are basically trying their best to make things uncomfortable for me.

Hand 2: AJs is good enough that I go ahead and raise preflop, even if I figure my raise will set off gamble-fever and attract people to get involved in a pot that's going to be capped. (I've played at tables like that. And when I have, I've wondered with some hands such as KQo whether it would be better to limp and go to the flop for one bet, instead of raising and setting off a big-pot frenzy. And I think it would be. But that's KQo and not AJs.)

Anyway, I would probably 3-bet the flop with my overcard and flush draw and vague straight potential. But, really, calling might be more sensible, as I'd imagine CO is staying in with any hand that can beat us if we improve, and if he's practically drawing dead versus the hands we hope to make (which includes a pair of jacks, by the way), then we'd rather not 3-bet if the inevitable cap from MP3 would drive CO out.

On the river, if CO hadn't called, I would have seriously considered doing so myself.

11-07-2005, 10:02 PM

yeah i was thinking about what sklansky said in HPFAP about loose games, that sometimes it's better to not raise as much preflop to get more players in, then bet more postflop because the mistakes are easier to exploit at that point. is that applicable here?

numeri

11-07-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
everyone is way too loose. i'm not going to look up stats for 9 other players but it was incredibly LAGish.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. You just mentioned that there were 'fish', and I was wondering if one of the 'fish' might have raised. It'd make a big difference.

As it is, I think I play it the same as Nick. (Call for all 4 on the flop and fold when it's two back to me on the turn.)

11-07-2005, 10:25 PM

oh, i know one of the raises was a maniac, maybe the flop capper.

Aaron W.

11-07-2005, 11:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an incredibly loose table (25BB+ hand average) full of maniacs and fish. So I'm not sure how to react to the heavy reraise and multiple cap action.

[/ QUOTE ]

25BB+ average means that you're regularly seeing pots go for more than 30 BB. Methinks this is an exaggeration.

11-07-2005, 11:52 PM

that's what PT said, granted not a huge sample but when i first started there were a couple 40+ pots.

Nick C

11-08-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i was thinking about what sklansky said in HPFAP about loose games, that sometimes it's better to not raise as much preflop to get more players in, then bet more postflop because the mistakes are easier to exploit at that point. is that applicable here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't sound like you have to worry too much about your preflop raise chasing people away, at this table.

At a table like yours, pretty good but not great unsuited hands are the ones I'm mainly unsure what to do with (AJo, KQo). I mean, I really don't want to play those hands in a multiway pot for a cap very much, but I also don't really want to throw them away.

I do want to play the big suited cards though (such as AJs+ and KQs). I want to play big pairs too, though I'm going to find myself in an uncomfortable situation if I don't catch a set and there's one overcard. (If there are two overcards, I think I can grudgingly get away from my hand.)

11-08-2005, 01:47 AM

i seem to lose the most money with those offsuit high cards.

bozlax

11-08-2005, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm going to far with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's usually the problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's not the first problem then the other problem is playing too timidly with them. AJs is a strong, strong hand...you WANT this 3-bet behind you by people who's 3-betting standards are low.

More on the hands:

Hand 1 on the flop is a simple pot-odds exercise. If you're pretty sure it's going to be capped, then you have to fold when it's 2 to you. You're getting 12:1 on the first call, but look at the whole street; by the time you call 2, twice, you're only getting 7:1 and that's not enough for you to call with overcards. The backdoor straight makes it closer, but not enough.

Hand 2: 3-bet the flop. CO didn't fold when it was 2 to him, there's no reason to think he will if it's 2 more. You've got a slight equity edge (much bigger if all your top pair outs are good, as they might be), and against these types of players that's where your money gets made.

11-08-2005, 03:03 AM

ok.. would you say in a very agressive field, that if i miss with overcards and have little to none in terms of draws, that the best play is usually check/fold, bet/fold, etc...?