Starting to loose sanity against LAGs [Archive]

View Full Version : Starting to loose sanity against LAGs

11-07-2005, 09:01 PM

After a successful run from $300 at 1/2 to $1200 I have started playing 2/4 at party poker. I expected to find more tight agressive players as i moved up. Instead I have found several of them extremely loose and extremely agressive. I am having the worst time figuring out how to play in these situations. I'll just start posting hands and hopefully you can either A.) assert i played correctly and restore some sanity or B.) fix my leaks against these loose agressive players. It seems they love to check raise or reraise whether they have a great hand or trash. You never know where you stand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, BB calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (10.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

results in white below:
BB has Q7o

Nick C

11-07-2005, 09:09 PM

River checkraises are usually a very strong hand, but you will run into a few players who love to wait and then bluff-raise the river with pocket 4's.

I would have paid off in this hand (though I also would have expected to lose). Among other things, even if he's not bluffing, exactly, Villain may think his J3s or J9 is good.

What I'd actually expect to see, though, is T8.

milesdyson

11-07-2005, 09:26 PM

nice flop check /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Nick C

11-07-2005, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nice flop check /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, wait, I missed that.

I think you should generally just bet this flop, hoping someone with A9 or 88 will raise and you can 3-bet.

HouseCalls

11-07-2005, 09:46 PM

Preflop/flop - I like both these raises with the over pair. Turn - When the 7 comes on the turn you might check just to see if someone represents trips. I would still call down if they did but you would be able to do so for 1BB on turn and river rather than being faced with a surprise double bet.
River - I think the most likely hands here are trip 7s, trip Js or a bluff. The pot has 13.75BB so you are getting 13.75/1 to call. I would expect you to have a better hand more often than that. I would call down and see what happens.
Grunching...

11-07-2005, 09:54 PM

yeah good point, the check raise on the flop was the one place i wasn't completely sure on. And perhaps guy with Q7o might have folded if someone raised behind me. Under 'normal' circumstances being in early position I should probably check and expect someone in late position to raise then I could reraise knocking out everyone in the middle but if i'm at a table of lags betting out and hoping for a reraise close behind me does make more sense.

Obviously my net for overcards such as QQ has been positive but perhaps not as much as it needs to be. Making +$68 with pocket queens in 10k hands indicates somethings probably wrong right?

But i think that brings me to my core question. He probably would have called. It seems like there's always a few that will play crazy hands to the river, therefore making top pairs and over pairs usually worthless (it seems) as one of the three opponents you're up against will always draw out to two ragged pair or better. Is the key to beating multiple LAGs in not going as far with top pair and overpairs as soon as you meet reversed agression? Or is the key just to find another table? Or do I just chalk it up to variance?

11-07-2005, 09:59 PM

You played it fine. You just have to call down, see how they got lucky and make notes.

11-07-2005, 10:02 PM

vnh, i particularly like the way he slowplayed the turn.

Nick C

11-07-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah good point, the check raise on the flop was the one place i wasn't completely sure on. And perhaps guy with Q7o might have folded if someone raised behind me. Under 'normal' circumstances being in early position I should probably check and expect someone in late position to raise then I could reraise knocking out everyone in the middle but if i'm at a table of lags betting out and hoping for a reraise close behind me does make more sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Going for a protection checkraise with an overpair has its place, but I hardly ever do it. There are some potential problems: (1) You don't really know where the bet is going to come from, especially if you're the only preflop aggressor. (2) The flop may get checked through, which is a bad result. (3) Sometimes you can get more value (and can still protect your hand as well) with a bet/3-bet sequence. For instance, if you bet, you get a few calls, you get raised by an LP player, and then you 3-bet, sometimes some of the original callers will then fold. On the other hand, if you checkraise, you may also get some folds, but the original bettor often will just call, and you won't get as much money in, with the best of it.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously my net for overcards such as QQ has been positive but perhaps not as much as it needs to be. Making +$68 with pocket queens in 10k hands indicates somethings probably wrong right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. You've had queens about 50 times, right? If you have a couple of sets of queens cracked during that stretch, that can have a big impact on your results for that specific hand, in a small 50-hand sample.

I'm doing much better with TT and 99 than I am with JJ, by the way, over my most recent 35K hands. (I'm a slight loser with JJ over that stretch, actually.)

[ QUOTE ]
But i think that brings me to my core question. He probably would have called. It seems like there's always a few that will play crazy hands to the river, therefore making top pairs and over pairs usually worthless (it seems) as one of the three opponents you're up against will always draw out to two ragged pair or better. Is the key to beating multiple LAGs in not going as far with top pair and overpairs as soon as you meet reversed agression? Or is the key just to find another table? Or do I just chalk it up to variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should continue to think about and analyze your play, but short-term variance can be very high in hold'em.

When you're up against players who are very loose, your big pairs will not hold up as often as they would at a tighter table. But when they do hold up, you'll get paid off better.

Generally speaking, you benefit when your opponents make calls that are too loose, even if it hurts your chances of winning the hand.

milesdyson

11-08-2005, 02:49 AM

everyone agreeing with the flop check raise is awesome. 4-way pot, we're 2nd to act, and if we check the flop it gets checked through very often, and gives free cards to players who will pay for them. flat out bad, stupid poker, and i'm not sure if you guys are just missing that he checked the flop.

KaiShin

11-08-2005, 02:53 AM

Just to reiterate Miles' point:
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
The flop check is very bad.

TomBrooks

11-08-2005, 03:28 AM

NH.

Your not going to stop betting an overpair every time the turn pairs the board, are you? Particularly on this board, Villian could be raising with a Jack. No?