Is Doyles's expose the aces play legal?

[betgo]

In <u>Super System</u> he says that if there are trips on the board and someone goes allin and he had AA, he would turn the aces face up and try to read his opponent's reaction to determine if his opponent had quads or a lower boat.

This might be OK in a backroom in Texas, but I wonder if it is legal in a cardroom.

I would personally not try anything that could be interpretted as an angle shoot on an allin pot, but I am just curious.

[UATrewqaz]

I've been in tournaments where people have done this and it slid, also the Heads Up Poker Championship NBC put on last year (the one Hellmuth won) had this as a special rule, you can reveal your hole cards at any time to get a read.

But I believe the standard rule/practice is that if you intentionally expose your cards they are considered dead.

[mrkilla]

its card room dependant..most places don't allow it though

TDA rules say that in this situation, you could incur a penalty (time away from table), but your hand will NOT be killed.

[Kaeser]

It's more commonly allowed in cash games like Doyle played in. I've seen it done at the MGM as well as on live at the bike.

[mikech]

afaik, it's fine in a hu situation.

[Percula]

Rules vary from room to room, but in a cash game in a HU pot, the VAST majority will allow you to expose one or all cards at any point during the hand.

Since you play a fair amount at the Wynn... Yes they do allow it like any good room will.

As to the value, it can have value, but not always.

Here is a hand from the Wynn 1/3 NL game...

I raise UTG to $30 with A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif, I pickup 2 callers.

Flop comes Q/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gifA/images/graemlins/heart.gif. The BB (rather short stacked for the table) leads for $120, I insta AI for ~$600, other caller folds.

The BB flips the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I fliped up the K/images/graemlins/club.gif and after much thought called.

After the hand he told me he figured that I was on KK with the redraw to the flush.

In a tournament, it is almost never allowed. Anywhere from a warning to nasty punishment/DQ.

Bottom line always ask the floor before sitting...

[JFB37]

[ QUOTE ]

The BB flips the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I fliped up the K/images/graemlins/club.gif and after much thought called.

After the hand he told me he figured that I was on KK with the redraw to the flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

Man is he dumb. I usually induce people to call my AI when they show me a hand that beats mine.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The BB flips the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I fliped up the K/images/graemlins/club.gif and after much thought called.

After the hand he told me he figured that I was on KK with the redraw to the flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

Man is he dumb. I usually induce people to call my AI when they show me a hand that beats mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think flipping the K was dumb. But apprently it worked, so yeah, that guy is dumb

I made a ruling on this very situation just the other day. There is one other consideration to keep in mind: are there other people in the hand, or is it heads-up? In a cash game, heads up, I would rule with perfect consistancy that exposing one or both of your hole cards to get a read is legal. However we must consider if another player is involved in the hand (either an all-in situation or still actively betting does not matter).

Exposing your cards when a player is all in and you are in side action is wrong (especially so in a tournament). You are exposing your cards either to induce a call or push a fold. If you are trying to induce a call you may be putting the all-in player's hand in peril moreso than before (that is what if they guy you are hoping calls can beat YOU - oops. That definately hurts the AI player if they can beat you but cannot beat your opponent).

The other consideration is if you have 3 active bettors. You are feeding at least one or the two players extra information giving them an unfair advantage over the 3rd player. ie: Player A bets, you (player B) expose a card and taunt. Player C now has information player A never had when making his bet. Even if you are acting last (A bets, B calls/raises then you expose a card and act) player A is at a disadvantage to B again. Other thoughts?

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The BB flips the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I fliped up the K/images/graemlins/club.gif and after much thought called.

After the hand he told me he figured that I was on KK with the redraw to the flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

Man is he dumb. I usually induce people to call my AI when they show me a hand that beats mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think flipping the K was dumb. But apprently it worked, so yeah, that guy is dumb

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all dumb.

Play the hand from the "villians" prespective... You have a tight (preflop) player making a raise from UTG, his likely range of hands based on your hours of play with him are AA, KK, QQ as the most likely and you look down and see a strong ace (strong for a BB hand anyway) of AJo and call. Risky but the UTG player has a tendency to overplay big pairs so you have good implied odds of stacking him.

Now when the flop comes AQ3 and you "know" the UTG mostly holds AA for a set, KK for a under pair or QQ for a set you lead out to find out where you are at with UTG, then he pushes on you, and he has done this a couple times before on the table and not always with the nuts (showing a couple bluffs after the hand), so it is hard to tell by the push if you are way ahead or way behind. So you flip your ace up hopeful to get a read, instead UTG flips up a K and that varifies your first read of KK and call with top pair good kicker looking to stack UTG with an overplayed big pair.

And yes I set this play up. I know how players see me on the table and exploited that in this case. There were several comments on the table along the lines of "Wow! I never put you on that!".

[Rick Nebiolo]

As an aside if you do go all-in (primarily in no limit) don't look at the pot or your opponent. This will help prevent giving off these tells.

I like to consistently let my eyes glaze over and look at a spot in front of my chips.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
TDA rules say that in this situation, you could incur a penalty (time away from table), but your hand will NOT be killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I heard tournament poker rules in this area were different I looked this up and wondered what the heck it meant. IOW, what determines incurring a penalty of time away?

Note that I haven't played tournaments for years and haven't watched much TV poker.

~ Rick

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
So you flip your ace up hopeful to get a read, instead UTG flips up a K and that varifies your first read of KK and call with top pair good kicker looking to stack UTG with an overplayed big pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you had KK, there's no way you'd flip the Kc, is there? I never play no-limit, but AcKc is about the only hand that makes sense once you raise all in on that flop, and then show the Kc after your opponent has shown that he already has at least a pair of aces.

-McGee

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
It's more commonly allowed in cash games like Doyle played in. I've seen it done at the MGM as well as on live at the bike.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played Live At Bike last Tuesday and saw a player in seat 3 not only turn his cards face up when facing a bet but he also pushed his cards about five inches toward the muck. Pushing cards forward face up when facing a bet could easily be interpreted as a fold so be careful!

~ Rick

PS When I reviewed the archives (hand took place about 47 minutes into the webcast) it turned out there was some sort of verbal agreement to expose the cards (my hearing at the table with background noise isn't what it used to be) so everything was copacetic.

[Black Aces 518]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you flip your ace up hopeful to get a read, instead UTG flips up a K and that varifies your first read of KK and call with top pair good kicker looking to stack UTG with an overplayed big pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you had KK, there's no way you'd flip the Kc, is there? I never play no-limit, but AcKc is about the only hand that makes sense once you raise all in on that flop, and then show the Kc after your opponent has shown that he already has at least a pair of aces.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

[J.A.Sucker]

This is perfectly OK to do in a cash game. Usually, people don't do it, but it's fine. In a multiway pot, there are issues with it, but in a headsup pot, I've seen it done lots and it's not against the rules. In tourneys, it is against the rules, thanks to Ray Zee. He's ruining life for all of us... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jersey Nick]

Here’s a similar situation from a home game last night that I’m cross posting here because this thread came up in my search.

One table tournament - 6 players left
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Dealer Calls, SB completes, BB checks
Flop K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB checks, BB bets, Dealer Calls, SB folds
Turn 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks, Dealer checks
River A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB goes all-in
The dealer thinks for a minute and then tables K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif and says, “I think this two pair is good. I don’t think you slow played the flush and I don’t believe you’ve got AK or you would have come out stronger pre-flop. I call”. SB mucks and concedes pot.

Other players at the table felt that Dealer tabling his cards to get a read on BB was a questionable manuever. Nothing in the home rulebook (RRoP) addressed this issue.

From the TDA Rules (http://www.thepokerforum.com/tdarules.htm):
“6. Penalties: A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if softplay occurs, or similar incidents take place.”

“36. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.”

Does anyone know what the spirit/reasoning behind these rules is?

The players were heads-up and this didn’t influence anyone else’s betting since there was no more action. So what do you think: was this an angle shoot, a rule violation, or a good play?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

According to my source in the TDA circle, a penalty may mean 10,20,30,40 minutes away from the table, in which case you're blinded off in the meantime, and it might mean disqualification and your chips removed from play in highly grievous and extreme cases. Simply doing the doyle trick once will result in a warning, doing it twice, a time penalty. Doing it a third time, a kick in the nuts. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
In a cash game, heads up, I would rule with perfect consistancy that exposing one or both of your hole cards to get a read is legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

I also agree on your thoughts about multi-way pots, or heads-up side pots with the third player all-in. No dice.

al

[Jersey Nick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a cash game, heads up, I would rule with perfect consistancy that exposing one or both of your hole cards to get a read is legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

I also agree on your thoughts about multi-way pots, or heads-up side pots with the third player all-in. No dice.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al - why would this move be acceptable in a cash game but not a tournament situation?

Nick

I remember watching some of the older WSOP broadcasts on ESPN Classic.. I swear I saw players table their hand when deciding whether or not to call an all-in when heads-up in a pot. The announcers were never shocked by it. ("Now he's exposing his hand, we see he has the top pair with a weak kicker, he's trying to figure out if it's the best hand.")

Did this practice change in the past 5-10 years?

[Don Olney]

When this book came out--- showing hands was part of the normal game-- this was live and tourneys.
Now, some rooms will call the hand dead in live play and a few others go with the flow and call it part of the game if the hand is heads up--
Play on------

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Al - why would this move be acceptable in a cash game but not a tournament situation?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because TDA rules don't allow this tactic to be used at all. So if you're in a tournament with TDA rules, you may incur a penalty.

That doesn't really address the question of WHY, I know. Basically if it's within the guidelines of reasonableness and doesn't give any third party an unfair advantage/disadvantage, I personally don't have a problem with it. But if you do it in a tournament, an inexperience player or dealer may try to say you have a dead hand, and even worse, and inexperienced or unknowledgeable floorman might back them up. So it's best to just NOT do it in a tournament, and it's probably best to just NOT do it at all.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Did this practice change in the past 5-10 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

More so than the practice, the average experience level of the players, dealers and floors dropped about 99.9%. So yes.

al