Folded my first AK

For the first time that I can ever remember, I folded AK preflop. I feel like this is a big step for me:

Early on, blinds 10/20...everyone's stack about the same ~ 1500.

I raise from EP to 125. One caller in MP. Villain on the button raises to 600. I still had about 1375 chips and just didn't want to get involved in a race at this point so I folded. Turns out Villain had AK as well and got busted by the MP player who went all in w/ 44...go figure.

Anyway, the poker gods rewarded me as I went on to finish first, ironically winning the final hand with AK.

[davehwm]

Duck!

[Hornacek]

http://jolle.se/imgs/cookie.jpg

I'm so generous.

[pokerlaw]

stop opening with t125 raises on L1.

[Rduke55]

That is a big step.
Congratulations and ignore the cookie.

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stop opening with t125 raises on L1.

[/ QUOTE ] I've found that 125 is usually the line of demarkation for getting an opponent heads-up, which is what I want with AK. I wouldn't raise that much with any other hand except AA or KK.

[bones]

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I wouldn't raise that much with any other hand except AA or KK.

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That's <font color="white"> tell </font> an interesting <font color="white"> tell </font> way of looking at raising amounts. <font color="white">tell tell tell </font>

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I wouldn't raise that much with any other hand except AA or KK.

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That's <font color="white"> tell </font> an interesting <font color="white"> tell </font> way of looking at raising amounts. <font color="white">tell tell tell </font>

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Well, it may be a tell, but I think it's obvious anyway. I mean what do you think someone has if they raise that much? I occasionally do it with 10-9s or something similar to throw the observant ones off. But honestly, I haven't seen the same players at my tables enough for them to ever pick up the difference between a 100 and a 125 raise.

[pokerlaw]

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I wouldn't raise that much with any other hand except AA or KK.

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That's <font color="white"> tell </font> an interesting <font color="white"> tell </font> way of looking at raising amounts. <font color="white">tell tell tell </font>

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lol, nh.

[runner4life7]

I think any raise greater than 80 there is just dumb, if you cant play postflop then just fold it and every other hand.

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I think any raise greater than 80 there is just dumb, if you cant play postflop then just fold it and every other hand.

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And why am I only raising 80, when I'm going to get 4 callers and my AK just lost it's value? Yes I would have saved myself 45 chips in this situation. But I can win a huge pot heads up vs. AQ or AJ because people will call 125...or lose a big pot to a set of 2s because I only raised 80 and got 4 callers.

You can disagree with this but don't be so close-minded that you think your raise amount is the only non-dumb way to play.

[pokerlaw]

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I think any raise greater than 80 there is just dumb, if you cant play postflop then just fold it and every other hand.

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And why am I only raising 80, when I'm going to get 4 callers and my AK just lost it's value? Yes I would have saved myself 45 chips in this situation. But I can win a huge pot heads up vs. AQ or AJ because people will call 125...or lose a big pot to a set of 2s because I only raised 80 and got 4 callers.

You can disagree with this but don't be so close-minded that you think your raise amount is the only non-dumb way to play.

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good players will see this tell and you will get pwned accordingly. that is all.

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I think any raise greater than 80 there is just dumb, if you cant play postflop then just fold it and every other hand.

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And why am I only raising 80, when I'm going to get 4 callers and my AK just lost it's value? Yes I would have saved myself 45 chips in this situation. But I can win a huge pot heads up vs. AQ or AJ because people will call 125...or lose a big pot to a set of 2s because I only raised 80 and got 4 callers.

You can disagree with this but don't be so close-minded that you think your raise amount is the only non-dumb way to play.

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good players will see this tell and you will get pwned accordingly. that is all.

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Okay, I'll think about it.

[durron597]

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http://jolle.se/imgs/cookie.jpg

I'm so generous.

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Yum

[microbet]

I'm not saying raise to 125 or anything in particular, but you don't make your decisions based on how good opponents will respond, you make them based on how your actual opponents will. Right, Lorinda?

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I'm not saying raise to 125 or anything in particular, but you don't make your decisions based on how good opponents will respond, you make them based on how your actual opponents will. Right, Lorinda?

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Thank you. That's sort of the point i was having trouble articulating. I'm playing the $22s at pokerroom. It's not like I'm getting AK twice in the same tourney on level 1 and showing down and Phil Ivey picks me off the 3rd time because he picks up on my raise discrepancy...

I think the point here is raise size in proportion to BB. At early level a 125 raise will probably be called a good % of the time by PP anyway (donks don't laydown). The people who pay you off are Ax and Kx here. You want them calling so when an A or K flops you get paid post flop as well. Sure occassional they catch their 2 pair but in the long run you will be way ahead if you soften a little.

[Vetstadium]

If you are playing on Party at levels $22 and below, heck even $33's a 125 preflop raise gets called a lot by garbage. I usually don't raise 125 AK but will sometimes to mix it up. There is no right or wrong way whatever works for you.

[sofere]

At the PP $22s and lower (probably can include $33s too)), there is no such thing as a tell.

Edit: I don't raise to 125 in with AK in EP at level 1 either. I don't like letting myself get too attached to AK that early.

[TheNoodleMan]

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stop opening with t125 raises on L1.

[/ QUOTE ] I've found that 125 is usually the line of demarkation for getting an opponent heads-up, which is what I want with AK. I wouldn't raise that much with any other hand except AA or KK.

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Why do you feel that you need to be heads up when you have AK? AK is drawing hand, it does just fine in a multiway pot.

[SlackerMcFly]

AK = Anna Kournikova. Looks pretty but rarely wins......

A raise of that amount at that buy-in and level is nothing but trouble. Fine play later when the blinds mean something and/or you are looking to hassle a stack, though.

Good luck. Slacker

[SonnyJay]

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You can disagree with this but don't be so close-minded that you think your raise amount is the only non-dumb way to play.

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I agree that groupthink does sometimes enter into these forums (myself included) and that there is validity to other arguments. However, it seems like this is pretty cut and dry. t80 isn't the only valid raise, but more than 6xBB is a very large raise to make, especially in EP where callers will have position on all the streets. This isn't a fun situation to be in.

Raise to t125 preflop, button calls.
Pot: t280
Flop: Qs 9h 8s
You continuation bet t200, button calls.
Pot: t680
Turn: 3d
You...

This is obviously just one situation, but it shows how the pot can spiral out of control when you are playing it heads up for a huge raise. In a multiway pot you can slow down and see how the action develops if you whiff, but heads up you basically have to continuation bet. Now that the pot is huge, you begin to lose control and still don't really know where you stand.

I also question your analysis that people that will call t80 with a "bad hand" that can suck out on you won't call t125.
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But I can win a huge pot heads up vs. AQ or AJ because people will call 125...or lose a big pot to a set of 2s because I only raised 80 and got 4 callers.

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I really question that a guy that would call t80 with 22 wouldn't call t125 at the low buyins, but for a second assume that it's true. It is true that there is a point that even a bad player will not call with a hand that he doesn't have odds for. No matter how much a player loves 22, there's an amount you can raise where he no longer feels it's worth it. This being said, there's also a point that the amount you're risking also makes it not worth it to you. I see where you're going here, but I definitely believe the negatives outweigh the positives here.

You were correct to fold the AK to the raise.

-SonnyJay

[Slim Pickens]

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And why am I only raising 80, when I'm going to get 4 callers and my AK just lost it's value?

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This is exactly wrong.

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This is obviously just one situation, but it shows how the pot can spiral out of control when you are playing it heads up for a huge raise. In a multiway pot you can slow down and see how the action develops if you whiff, but heads up you basically have to continuation bet. Now that the pot is huge, you begin to lose control and still don't really know where you stand.

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Awesome post, SonnyJay. I learned a lot from it. I'm new to poker and 2+2 and really appreciate the extra time you and other quality posters spend articulating your reasoning.

I don't learn as much from the "fold here for the obvious reasons" and "it's a no-brainer to push here" posts that I see a lot of. Your reply has given me a lot to chew on.

[Slim Pickens]

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And why am I only raising 80, when I'm going to get 4 callers and my AK just lost it's value?

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This is exactly wrong.

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You win the pot a smaller fraction of the time, but the pot is that much larger each time someone calls. There are a lot of people who seem to subscribe to this "thin the field with your good hands so no one sucks out on you" logic. That is poor thinking. If you raise to 80 and get 2 callers, you don't even have to worry about playing a flop with less than TPTK to have gotten your money back on the flop raise. Any more than that are just adding the same amount as you did to the pot with a much smaller chance to win.

If you're looking for a longer excercise to demonstrate my point, construst the following on paper.

8-handed, everyone has 50BB. You have AK and the option for either one caller or four callers. Just to guess the callers' hand ranges, each caller has a 0.25% chance of having AA and the same for KK. Everything else you can outflop with TPTK aside from them flopping two pair or better. Any random hand does that about 5% of the time.

With one caller, you will miss the flop 2/3 of the time after having paid about 1:1 to get there, so in order to make your preflop raise pay off, you have to be able to play missed overcards for a profit. That's hard. You have some solid implied odds for milking weaker aces for a lot when the ace flops, but those are largely offset by what you don't win when and ace flops and a lower PP deosn't pay you off.

Anyway, you need to think this through a little more before deciding preflop callers with AK are bad for you.