($22) How bad was this laydown?

[RobertC]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t745)
Button (t1560)
SB (t1475)
BB (t620)
UTG (t955)
UTG+1 (t595)
MP1 (t1320)
MP2 (t730)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
[color=#666666]2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif [color=#0000FF](4 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]SB bets t100</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t420) A/images/graemlins/club.gif [color=#0000FF](3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets t100</font>, SB folds, [color=#CC3333]MP1 raises to t600</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1120

One of the biggest weaknesses in my game is that I concentrate too much on my own cards without thinking about the hand my opponent might have. Consequently I rarely fold a strong hand even when the betting suggests I'm beaten. Never before in my life have I folded a full house in Hold'em.

My thinking after the raise on the turn was that MP1 wouldn't have called the flop without some kind of hand. So he held a 7, ace, or pocket pair. I could see him calling the turn with a 7 or pocket pair, but not raising with them. So I concluded he must have an ace and I folded.

Of course now I think that if he had an ace why would he raise me all-in. He could make a minimum raise and I might bite. Or I might even reraise thinking the mini-raise was a bluff. I also think now that he might've gone all-in with a 7. This is what I call a panic all-in. Where the player has the nuts at one point, slowplays, no longer has the nuts, and then goes all-in hoping to take down the pot that was supposed to his in the first place.

Should I have checked on the turn? Will a hand that can't beat me call a turn bet? Perhaps better to check the turn and maybe induce a bet or a call from a weaker hand on the river. What do you think? Thanks.

[Geordie Ramone]

The laydown seems fair enough, but I would definitly be pushing the flop

[pineapple888]

This is kind of a tough one because you played the hand so weakly that villain could have just about anything.

With your stack size, just push the flop and hope for the best.

[splashpot]

I probably would have folded preflop. Party's 800 chip stacks don't leave much room for drawing hands. I would have raised the flop because I think any ace will call, but I suppose slow playing it is ok considering there is no flush draw. When that ace hits on the turn, I'm check/folding the rest of the hand.

[bluef0x]

I definately fold this pre-flop. Maybe you can justify a limp if nearly the whole table is limping, but 87s for 30 chips is a waste. Even if the flop is a decent straight/flush draw- you are going to end up throwing away a lot of chips chasing. I've really tightened up in my $11/$22 SnG's, I don't play suited connectors unless I'm SB and need to complete and I play less pocket pairs than I used to. It has definately improved my results, as you get into less trouble spots like this... I raise a lot on the flop, hoping for a reraise so I can go all-in. The turn I check/fold and then cry.

[Freudian]

I think you have to push the flop. It is a great flop with. The ace on the flop will make people call you as a dog quite often.

Since you didn't, I'd fold this turn.

[Hornacek]

For everyone pushing this flop, please explain.

He has position on them, and no straight or flush draws whatsoever. Are your guys' pushes results-oriented because the 2-outer hit on the turn? I'm calling the same way on the flop, and folding the turn. If anything else hits the turn, I'm going to raise the turn, or bet 1/3 to 1/2 the pot if its checked to me.

i agree, you don't push flop. ludicrous. results oriented thinking.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
For everyone pushing this flop, please explain.

He has position on them, and no straight or flush draws whatsoever. Are your guys' pushes results-oriented because the 2-outer hit on the turn? I'm calling the same way on the flop, and folding the turn. If anything else hits the turn, I'm going to raise the turn, or bet 1/3 to 1/2 the pot if its checked to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause you only have 700 behind a 325 pot, and if you push at the 22s, you could very well get worse hands to call.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For everyone pushing this flop, please explain.

He has position on them, and no straight or flush draws whatsoever. Are your guys' pushes results-oriented because the 2-outer hit on the turn? I'm calling the same way on the flop, and folding the turn. If anything else hits the turn, I'm going to raise the turn, or bet 1/3 to 1/2 the pot if its checked to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause you only have 700 behind a 325 pot, and if you push at the 22s, you could very well get worse hands to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're afraid of the 2-outer hitting, so you want to try to lock into the t325 pot NOW? Especially with position? Wow.

I think you are overestimating the donkishness of the players on PP. Maybe a year and a half ago, but I think you can wait to raise the turn now. The players are still horrible, but I think you'd be better off waiting. There are cases where an ace will lead on the turn again, but will fold to reraise all in on the flop.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For everyone pushing this flop, please explain.

He has position on them, and no straight or flush draws whatsoever. Are your guys' pushes results-oriented because the 2-outer hit on the turn? I'm calling the same way on the flop, and folding the turn. If anything else hits the turn, I'm going to raise the turn, or bet 1/3 to 1/2 the pot if its checked to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause you only have 700 behind a 325 pot, and if you push at the 22s, you could very well get worse hands to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're afraid of the 2-outer hitting, so you want to try to lock into the t325 pot NOW? Especially with position? Wow.

I think you are overestimating the donkishness of the players on PP. Maybe a year and a half ago, but I think you can wait to raise the turn now. The players are still horrible, but I think you'd be better off waiting. There are cases where an ace will lead on the turn again, but will fold to reraise all in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not afraid of anything. I'm pushing what I think is the best hand with relatively short stacks, hoping to get one of the two donks left to come along.

You play it differently, that's fine. No need to drop your jaw onto the floor.

[schwza]

fold pre-flop.

i like the flop call. one reason is that a big card may come on the turn, making Ax think he's chopping.

i would check behind on the turn and plan on folding to a non-tiny river bet.

Um yeah... have you played the 22s? Pushing here will get a call waaaay more than half the time, especially with two people in. damn near any ace, alot of pocket pairs, and sometimes even a coupla high cards.

and yes, the 325 is big enough to try and grab ahold of right now, seeing as how your kicker is crap, and there is another seven out there.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
and yes, the 325 is big enough to try and grab ahold of right now, seeing as how your kicker is crap, and there is another seven out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your reraise all in is going to try and make the guy with the other 7 (but a better kicker) FOLD? AHAHAHAHAAAHA... ok.

I haven't played a $22 in over 2 years... I guess they are complete retards then. But I still don't understand why you wouldn't just wait until the turn to reraise all in. Generally raises should be used to make draws commit to their hand. If an ace is calling a raise all in on the flop, there sure isn't anything that can come on the turn that would make him fold a raise all in on the turn.

Edit: behemoth how the hell do you have 1100 posts in less than two months...?

[pokerlaw]

when i play hands like 78, this is exactly the flop I want, and I am RRing the flop here every time. with the stacks the way they are, push it real good.

why do I push? because i get called by hands I am beating.

[jedinite]

Agreed.

At the $22s, after the bet-call its also effective to raise the flop to something like 300 or even the "deceptive donk min-raise". You'll almost always get both other people to come along, and often will get a push over the top from a much worse hand (in this case, almost certainly Ax).

So that way, most/all of the money goes in on the flop when you're ahead, and the rest of the hand becomes a bad beat story when your opponent hits their two outer on the turn.

[Hornacek]

If this kind of play works for y'all, more power to you. Just shows there's more than one way to take money from the fishies.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and yes, the 325 is big enough to try and grab ahold of right now, seeing as how your kicker is crap, and there is another seven out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your reraise all in is going to try and make the guy with the other 7 (but a better kicker) FOLD? AHAHAHAHAAAHA... ok.

I haven't played a $22 in over 2 years... I guess they are complete retards then. But I still don't understand why you wouldn't just wait until the turn to reraise all in. Generally raises should be used to make draws commit to their hand. If an ace is calling a raise all in on the flop, there sure isn't anything that can come on the turn that would make him fold a raise all in on the turn.

Edit: behemoth how the hell do you have 1100 posts in less than two months...?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, I wrote the end of that sentence incorrectly, it should have come later. What I meant was that people all seemed to be forgetting abuot the fourth seven. My bad, that was just written mucho unclearly.

As far as the 1100 posts, I have a prop bet with another player concerning posts before the end of the year... and also Im spending alot more time on the forums while playing now that Im back to 4-tabling instead of 8 (a monitor broke).

yeah, sadly enough there are retards like this in the 22s.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]

As far as the 1100 posts, I have a prop bet with another player concerning posts before the end of the year...

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry for the brief hi-jack, but wtf kindof prop bet is this?????? Why not bet on the number of emails or IMs you can send? Is there a quality component of the posts, or can you just post "Do you see why" 23841384103413 times?

Certain gamblers amaze me sometimes...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
The laydown seems fair enough, but I would definitly be pushing the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a ton of people looking for action. One of them will call you with an ace at a $22. PUSH flop.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As far as the 1100 posts, I have a prop bet with another player concerning posts before the end of the year...

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry for the brief hi-jack, but wtf kindof prop bet is this?????? Why not bet on the number of emails or IMs you can send? Is there a quality component of the posts, or can you just post "Do you see why" 23841384103413 times?

Certain gamblers amaze me sometimes...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was approached about this in IM, and it is for a goodly amount.

It's a friend who is doing it so that "I get better" and only posts made in strat forums count.

yes, Im amazed by certain gamblers too.

[jedinite]

This has been said before, by people much better than I - but it bears repeating.

People try to slowplay too much at SNGs. And in hold'em in general.

This isn't just "fastplay is the new slowplay". Its "when people show they want to put some money in the pot, give them an opportunity to put some more in".

I said it before in the thread, but when I've got a monster like this and its been raised and called in front for a substantial amount, I'm raising this almost every time. Pushing the flop works, personally I like raising to $300 or even min-raising.

Against your typical (i.e. sub-optimal) SNG opponents, the weaker raise - what we'd typically identify as a bet for value - is generally regarded as weakness. Min-raise in this situation and cackle with glee as A2o or even TT pushes over the top of you and you insta-call. Give one of these two opponenents the opportunity to make the mistake.

Oh, and to the original topic of the thread - I wouldn't be suprised at all if the push was someone holding Kx, or if not holding the case seven.

[ QUOTE ]
This has been said before, by people much better than I - but it bears repeating.

People try to slowplay too much at SNGs. And in hold'em in general.

This isn't just "fastplay is the new slowplay". Its "when people show they want to put some money in the pot, give them an opportunity to put some more in".

I said it before in the thread, but when I've got a monster like this and its been raised and called in front for a substantial amount, I'm raising this almost every time. Pushing the flop works, personally I like raising to $300 or even min-raising.

Against your typical (i.e. sub-optimal) SNG opponents, the weaker raise - what we'd typically identify as a bet for value - is generally regarded as weakness. Min-raise in this situation and cackle with glee as A2o or even TT pushes over the top of you and you insta-call. Give one of these two opponenents the opportunity to make the mistake.

Oh, and to the original topic of the thread - I wouldn't be suprised at all if the push was someone holding Kx, or if not holding the case seven.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly my point, and you're right, at least at these levels, small bets are better than slowplaying, since donks seem to favor slowplaying alot, and will see it more readily.