$55's... You have no idea how strong I am... or do you?

[bigt439]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1490)
SB (t2209)
BB (t1080)
UTG (t2085)
UTG+1 (t498)
MP1 (t1010)
MP2 (t1008)
CO (t620)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t275</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1080 (All-In)</font>, Hero ?

I run over tables around this point of the tournie, but I do it fairly responsibly, so I'm probably viewed as LAG, but not ridiculous. Give your opinion on this hand, but let me know what your cutoff for calling here is, I'm much more interested in that. No reads on dude.

[downtown]

It depends on the player, a lot.

For a "generic" villain I'd have to go with AQs+, AK, TT+...

Edit: ...for a call here. I would turbomuck ATo.

[DPCondit]

Dump it, unless villain is a complete maniac.

[tigerite]

This is what ChrisV was talking about just the other day with regards steals.

It's why I would either push or fold this pf.

[bennies]

I don't get in these situations but if I did I'd be a touch looser calling than downtown. 88+, AJ+ I think.

[johnnybeef]

You run over tables at this time period but you don't know what to do in this situation?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
This is what ChrisV was talking about just the other day with regards steals.

It's why I would either push or fold this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read ChrisV's post, but pushing 10bb is terrible for so many reasons.

[tigerite]

Closer to 15, actually. I never said I would push. Just that push or fold is better than raise because of BB's exact stack size.

[pooh74]

I would NEVER push here PF (sorry, someone said that below)...

the raise is fine but you have to fold it IMO. You're not even getting 2-1 and his range should clobber you here. The chances that this is a move are not great enough to outweigh how bad shape you are in if you call.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Closer to 15, actually. I never said I would push. Just that push or fold is better than raise because of BB's exact stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i just woke up. cut me some slack there. i actually agree with that statement now that i have degrogified.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
I would NEVER push here PF (sorry, someone said that below)...


[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would NEVER push here PF (sorry, someone said that below)...


[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we are talking about gaining 150 in chips, and you are only called by hands that beat you...and beat you badly. Nevermind SB waking up with a hand and having you covered.

This to me is 101...if someone proves me wrong here you will blow my mind.

I'm at work so I cant do the math right now, but for 150 in chips with your stack, they have to fold ALOT!

[ QUOTE ]
This is what ChrisV was talking about just the other day with regards steals.

It's why I would either push or fold this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]


Which is to say fold as pushing is sick. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[bennies]

Blown. (albeit marginally but pretty much regardless their calling ranges)

Courtesy of SngPT.

[Apathy]

you make the best post titles.

this is a fold.

that is all.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Blown. (albeit marginally but pretty much regardless their calling ranges)

Courtesy of SngPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

By how much? BTW, I still don't push...Its still a mistake.

Edit: does anyone like limping? I do.

[bennies]

"It's close enough that pushing and folding are both...."

When that phrase pops up I usually fold. But at least we can learn this much, AJ is a must push.

[bennies]

I like it when some of the best posters are wrong once in a while /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it when some of the best posters are wrong once in a while /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure his comment is to the OP, for the OP's specific situation of raising then having to fold to the push.

[durron597]

If I am the BB, call /images/graemlins/frown.gif... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Against a normal opponent, fold.

[bennies]

dam. - I'm sure I'll get to bust one of those guys one day...

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it when some of the best posters are wrong once in a while /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant fold to the push, but I like the raise in the first place much more then a crazy overbet allin or an open fold, which part do you think im wrong about?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it when some of the best posters are wrong once in a while /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant fold to the push, but I like the raise in the first place much more then a crazy overbet allin or an open fold, which part do you think im wrong about?

[/ QUOTE ]

He thinks we're wrong because we don't like open pushing...I think open pushing sucks. SNGPT be damned...As EB has said, just because it is spitting out a +sign when you hit compute...it is NOT telling you to push!!!

Future EV here is a big deal for me.

[Apathy]

But i am argueing that raising to 275 has a higher $ev then open pushing even if open pushing is a winning play.

SNGPT is not equipped to argue against that.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
But i am argueing that raising to 275 has a higher $ev then open pushing even if open pushing is a winning play.

SNGPT is not equipped to argue against that.

[/ QUOTE ]

well that too...I don't think anyone was advocating folding. raising and playing from position is nice too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[lacky]

I think i call here. the raise is fine, as I would fold to a push by the sb, but I dont think bb has enough for me to fold here. There is already 1405 in the pot and it's costing me 805 to call. close to 2 to 1 on the call, and A10 isn't garbage.

[jedinite]

FWIW, with a read on my opponent as typcial ABC SNG'er, I've frequently been restealing here with top 80% (i.e. "almost any two") to great effect recently.

I fall in to the camp of either open-pushing this hand from the button to begin with - which I see often being called by a much better range (for us) compared to the hand range which will push back over you - or making a typical preflop raise and calling anything but the rockiest of players.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I think i call here. the raise is fine, as I would fold to a push by the sb, but I dont think bb has enough for me to fold here. There is already 1405 in the pot and it's costing me 805 to call. close to 2 to 1 on the call, and A10 isn't garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont you feel it is early yet for BB to be pushing your raise with a huge range? (by huge I mean big enough so that your overlay is good)

Does anyone feel this way? IOW, I tend to respect resteals more early than later.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, with a read on my opponent as typcial ABC SNG'er, I've frequently been restealing here with top 80% (i.e. "almost any two") to great effect recently.

I fall in to the camp of either open-pushing this hand from the button to begin with - which I see often being called by a much better range (for us) compared to the hand range which will push back over you - or making a typical preflop raise and calling anything but the rockiest of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, maybe I should delete my most recent post in this thread then!

[microbet]

Whether I open push or not depends entirely on SB. If I don't know anything about him, I will raise preflop and fold to the push.

[bigt439]

Alright interesting discussion so far.

My favorite development is johnnybeef asking how I don't know what to do here and then lacky and apathy proceeding to offer completely opposite advice.

I'm not going to say what I did yet, but right now I believe it is a call. I also really don't like open pushing at all and Apathy's vote of confidence on that is good enough for me to not go down that route.

When raising here I am planning on folding to a push from the sb and calling one from the BB. I really don't think that BB's repush range here is particularily small and I'm getting 2:1 on my money. It's not optimal, but I don't think I can fold given that price. I think this guy is pushing back with (very roughly):

22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,A2o+,KTo+,QJo

We are over 53% against this range, so while you may argue his range is smaller than this I don't think it is ever siginificantly enough to make us a big dog. Add in the dead money and I think we have a call. While I know this is a fairly incomplete analysis because I'm not taking into account chip EV and other tournament aspects, I'm just trying to hilite some of the main issues in my thought process. Keep it coming, I'd love to see some of these respected posters defending their move.

EDIT: Even though I think my range is reasonable, I think people will balk at it, and maybe rightly so. Before that discussion gets goign I'd like to say that against 22+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo we're still over 40%. Neither of these ranges take into account that villain could be making a move ever. That is all.

[bigt439]

God damnit. Nevermind.

[Apathy]

With no read you really think people repush that many hands?

I would think something like 88+ A-10+ KQ,being generous, but if this is just a question of what range the have i'm sure you know the appropraite action to take from then on based on what you think and the pot size.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
With no read you really think people repush that many hands?

I would think something like 88+ A-10+ KQ,being generous, but if this is just a question of what range the have i'm sure you know the appropraite action to take from then on based on what you think and the pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

For argument's sake, we're 36% against that range. But I can't see someone folding 77 or KJs there very often. I can however see people going buck with random hands like sc's or the like, so a slightly large range is a very hack way to somewhat account for this.

And yeah, if I hammered out a range I could almost always make the right decision, but there's more to it than that. I'm interested on the intial raise (which has kind of been covered) and people's repush ranges. And since people on this forum are all over the place on this hand I'm kind of interested to see where it goes.

Too bad about your bustout in the EPT event, I'm sure you had a sick time though. Toronto for Rudi's going away party Nov. 19?

[microbet]

I really expect to make my decisions here based on reads of SB and BB and 50 or 100 chips different in either HERO's or BB's stacks would make a big difference too.

I do put myself in the situation often enough where I'm saying I'll fold if big stack pushes but call if other stack (still around 10BBs) pushes. One sure thing is I don't want to do this if SB is a serial pwner. A read on BB is much harder to use here because a seeming rock can be a pushbot and a LAG can think A2 is the nuts in his spot. I think the average scared coward though has a little fairly narrow range here, more like the numbers in your edit and leaving the KQ's and maybe tiny PPs out.

[pooh74]

I wouldnt be surprised if you were even money against BB's push range here.

Again, I am not saying I don't like raising in the first place- I think that should be pretty standard.

[freemoney]

without reads open pushing has to be better than raising to 275 with the plan of folding to a push.

[lacky]

to reraise a standerd raise from and obviose steal position I would put him on any pair, KQs, maybe OJs and 10Js, AXo to A10, AXs to about A8. Thats assuming no read. Getting 1.75 to 1 on my call, I would think it's good here, but I'm not real math oriented, so you can tell me if I'm wrong. I do know that the average player on this forum puts his opponent on a much narrower range than is realistic for what the average player has.

Again, this is assuming no read as stated in the OP. If the guys is uber tight or psycho it would change things.

[Apathy]

Ok, I really don't care that much if you want to call this one, I'll buy that its the better play if you think the range is right, but I do like opening with 250 or 275 rather then all in because the blinds so often just call and then play terribly out of position, usually by just check folding.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
to reraise a standerd raise from and obviose steal position I would put him on any pair, KQs, maybe OJs and 10Js, AXo to A10, AXs to about A8. Thats assuming no read. Getting 1.75 to 1 on my call, I would think it's good here, but I'm not real math oriented, so you can tell me if I'm wrong. I do know that the average player on this forum puts his opponent on a much narrower range than is realistic for what the average player has.

Again, this is assuming no read as stated in the OP. If the guys is uber tight or psycho it would change things.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you assign that range you should be good then making that call.

[lacky]

yeah, as I said in the first reply, I like the opening raise cause I'm folding to a push by the sb. Basically I would know going in that I'm gonna fold to a sb push, call a bb push, assuming no read.

In reality though there is zero chance that I can get this deep into a sng and not have formed some idea how people are playing.

[zambonidrivr]

you run over tables with the 3rd biggest stack? nh

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I do know that the average player on this forum puts his opponent on a much narrower range than is realistic for what the average player has.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll drink to that. And I'm working on picking up reads, but this was my first session 8-tabling, so it's a work in progress.

Anyways, I think what really makes this a call is the times he is making a move, which I think is somewhat subtantial (obviously not ridiculously so, but the swing factor if you will).

I called like I had planned on doing. He had K6s and up to that point had seemed relatively normal. I don't remember, but I probably won because I am a poker god.

[adanthar]

I read the first 20 replies and puked when they all said to fold to the push. Then the next 20 restored sanity.

In the 109's and up you're *definitely* a favorite to most of their ranges, not just probably. They've loved restealing lately.

[microbet]

I'm not saying you should go to the trouble, but it would be interesting to see if you went over the Hand History and looked at the prior action of villian and see if the resteal is a surprise.

You adanthar and lacky are probably right, but if you know you are going to call his push, your stack isn't that big that folding to SB is that much different. A pretty narrow window for making raising better than pushing in the first place, unless you think you are a big enough favorite that you want to induce a resteal.

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm working on picking up reads, but this was my first session 8-tabling, so it's a work in progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell do you pick up reads 8-tabling??? Just one table keeps me busy...

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I'm working on picking up reads, but this was my first session 8-tabling, so it's a work in progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell do you pick up reads 8-tabling??? Just one table keeps me busy...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I had a stroke the first day, but since then it's actually not nearly as hard as I had expected.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks for the laugh!