Simple

[sfer]

Borgata game, 10 handed. ABCish too loose player openlimps in the hijack, two donkeys call, SB donkey completes, I check K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB. 5 players, 5 SBs.

Flop is K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks, I bet, HJ raises, folds to me and I call.

HU for 4.5 BBs. Turn is the 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check, HJ checks.

River is the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check intending to raise.

[brettbrettr]

I made a similar raise on Saturday I knew I wasn't going to get called but I was sort of pissed that I gave him a card so I check-raised the river to say [censored] you.

I guess in this hand you gain a bit when he folds a better king he was just trying to show down. Obv he's folding most of the time.

Nh.

[deetle]

Im not sure your river action matters, looks like he missed his flush and being ABC I dont think he is bluffing at this

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure your river action matters, looks like he missed his flush and being ABC I dont think he is bluffing at this

[/ QUOTE ]
But he's certainly not calling a river bet with his missed draw, so inducing a bluff is our best way of extracting that bet. ABC players will bet missed draws when checked to, in his eyes it's the only chance he has of winning the pot.

[deetle]

I agree he is not calling a bet. I missed the to loose read and assumed he was just weak. The attempted check raise is the only way to get any more $ in here

[Soh]

"...when he folds a better king..." <font color="blue"> </font>

I don't think he'll fold a better King here.

Soh

[Soh]

If you're going to check-raise on the river, why don't you do that on the turn?

[hicherbie]

this guy wont check a turn with a king.

[molawn2mo]

Couple of different perspectives...

HJ's play is very often a free card play with a flush draw or 2nd pair.

Sure he could have hit a set of 4s. Sure he could have K better kicker. More likely, though, is a free card type hand. As such, I lead the turn (it takes a special type of player to pop you on the turn again).

As played, though, after villain checks behind on the turn (confirming the fc play), the choice to lead the river or c/c or c/r is image dependent (c/c looks right unless villain perceives you as a lagass/bluffer; this because you are never getting a better K to fold).

If your image is such that you've been firing at various pots when weakness is shown then you, again, can fire away. More likely, though, villain will read your turn and river checks as weak and may think his T9s is best or he might fire 1 bet as a desperation bluff.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to check-raise on the river, why don't you do that on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz on the turn, he doesn't know if he has the best hand or not. When the dude checks the turn and no draws come in, he knows he does.

Isn't his flop raise also consistent with a hand like A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif? I'd be a little concerned that there were several players still left to act behind him when he raised the flop - indicating that he was on something other than a strong draw.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
this guy wont check a turn with a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I made a similar raise on Saturday I knew I wasn't going to get called but I was sort of pissed that I gave him a card so I check-raised the river to say [censored] you.

I guess in this hand you gain a bit when he folds a better king he was just trying to show down. Obv he's folding most of the time.

Nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, my thoughts about him folding a better king are retarded. 2 things:

1. The river check-raise is basically a metagame don't [censored] with me move b/c he's clearly not calling with a worse hand.

2. If he bets the turn and the river, you fold the river, right?

[flopmonster]

I like a check/called river bc of the possibility of the ste here.

[hicherbie]

an abc with TdXd bets here when checked to I think. i like it.

[The Goober]

I like it. Were you going to fold to a turn bet? With a stronger hand, I like pulling a stop 'n go here. WIth such a weak hand, though, I like checking - in fact, the chance that villain takes a free card is part of why I would call the flop raise in the first place.

On the river, I like checking to induce a bluff or a value-bet from a T. I think the raise is thin, but I like it - mostly because of the small but real chance that we can get villain to stupidly fold a weak king and save us half the pot.

[Soh]

I miss read the hand. I thought the other guy bet the turn.

[W. Deranged]

Dave,

My preferred line is a turn stop'n'go. Barring that, a river check-raise is really hot.

I hope you guys enjoyed AC. Was this game the 20, 40, or 80?

[Carmine]

The only reason I can see to C/R the river rather than C/Call is to represent trips and get a better K to fold. However most are in agreement that a K would not check this turn. I do agree that it would be silly for K to check the turn even if he has kicker concerns when he could take a free showdown at the river if Hero calls a turn bet.

Thing is we really can't be sure villian does not check a weak K on the turn and the raise on the river even though usually meaningless may help eliminate a chop situation. I doubt it gets a better K to fold, but it is much, much, much, less likely that KJ would ever check through the turn so I think it would be a very rare situation when we cost ourselves a bet from KJ.

Check-raise river looks good IMO.

[thejameser]

nice play

[mikeyvegas]

I dont like it cause I can't figure out a hand that calls your check raise that you beat? Maybe A-10 or something like that...

*Do you really expect to fold a K with this play

*edit

As this player is described as 'ABCish too loose' I can't see how he would either -

a - check a king on the turn, or
b - fold a king to a river check raise

Therefore, I think check calling here is probably the best play.

[BoxLiquid]

I like the play. I have a few questions and suggestions.


Why not bet out the turn? If he raises you can fold your weak kicker. This stops him from getting the free card. Is this a bad move?

What if you were to bet out turn then check the river when his draw doesn't come. Which will probably induce a bluff too. Then you get to have 2 bets from him.

Don't know if it makes sense to do that. Comments please.

[ QUOTE ]
I like the play. I have a few questions and suggestions.


Why not bet out the turn? If he raises you can fold your weak kicker. This stops him from getting the free card. Is this a bad move?

What if you were to bet out turn then check the river when his draw doesn't come. Which will probably induce a bluff too. Then you get to have 2 bets from him.

Don't know if it makes sense to do that. Comments please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this would be very dangerous. If he has the hand we fear on the flop (KQ, KJ) he will probably just call the turn if you donk him and then check calling/raising the river will lose you 2/3 big bets.

[sfer]

It was a 20/40 game and the best live game I've ever played.

Anyway, results really don't matter but it check/checked and I dragged. The one thing I would point out is not that I wanted to fold a K. That's basically never happening and it would have to work &gt; 37% of the time to be profitable. The checkraise is highly suspicious and I think any pair is calling, one because I had two river bluffs picked off in the past couple of hours and two because this player was the suspicious type. I didn't mention that, so this was a bit unfair, but I was curious how often people thought any pair would call the river. I've been experimenting with this river line a little bit and wanted some thoughts.

[W. Deranged]

Dave,

Was "Garbaggy" in the game? (Short, Asian guy who sleeps at the table and likes to explain every single play he makes, claiming that everyone else plays "garbaggy".) That Borgata 20 game was absolutely amazing the last time I played it.

[BottlesOf]

I think that extra bit of info is key. Otherwise I think it depends on your donk and a bet is better against some.