I have NO idea where to post this and it doesn't concern poker

[revlis87]

Please move this to the correct forum if this isnt cool.

I am a student at U. of Michigan Ann Arbor. I am also 18 years old. Last night I went to a party, had a few beers, and was hanging out with a female. She was extremely drunk, so i decided it would be best if i took her back to the dorm (she lives in my hall). As we got out of the taxi, she threw up. I then sat with her for 30 mins out side our dorm while she tried to feel better. About 30 mins in, a cop came out and noticed the situation. She had puke on her but I was perfectly sober - i doubt i couldnt have played pokeer at normal capacity or done ANYTHING i normally do perfectly. The cop called for several other cops to come and they gave the girl an MIP (minor in possession). This can be anything from having unopened alchohol in the car tohaving an empty beer can in your room to just acting drunk. Then, the officer asked mee if i had anything to drink. I told him respectfully that I had a few beers but that I was in no way drunk. He proceeded to write me an MIP. I now have a court date on tuesday.

My questions are as follows:

I was not read my miranda rights - and the officer didnt seem to haev a reason to ask me the question. How was I supposed to know that what i said would have been held against me?

What is my best defense when i go in front of the judge? that i was helping someone?

How would you guys approach this one. I dont want to have to pay $250, take classses etc.

Let me know your thoughts (or questions).

[TTChamp]

Are we talking University cops or real cops. Is your court date with the city court or a city magistrate or is it with some BS U of M court? This makes a big difference in your best course of action.

Did you at least make the police blotter? Everyone must make the blotter once while in school so at least you can get that out of the way early.

BTW, this probobly goes in OOT. I'm sure they would love to help you. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

IAMNAL (I am not a lawyer) But I think your miranda rights are only for when you are arrested.

[gabyyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
Please move this to the correct forum if this isnt cool.

I am a student at U. of Michigan Ann Arbor. I am also 18 years old. Last night I went to a party, had a few beers, and was hanging out with a female. She was extremely drunk, so i decided it would be best if i took her back to the dorm (she lives in my hall). As we got out of the taxi, she threw up. I then sat with her for 30 mins out side our dorm while she tried to feel better. About 30 mins in, a cop came out and noticed the situation. She had puke on her but I was perfectly sober - i doubt i couldnt have played pokeer at normal capacity or done ANYTHING i normally do perfectly. The cop called for several other cops to come and they gave the girl an MIP (minor in possession). This can be anything from having unopened alchohol in the car tohaving an empty beer can in your room to just acting drunk. Then, the officer asked mee if i had anything to drink. I told him respectfully that I had a few beers but that I was in no way drunk. He proceeded to write me an MIP. I now have a court date on tuesday.

My questions are as follows:

I was not read my miranda rights - and the officer didnt seem to haev a reason to ask me the question. How was I supposed to know that what i said would have been held against me?

What is my best defense when i go in front of the judge? that i was helping someone?

How would you guys approach this one. I dont want to have to pay $250, take classses etc.

Let me know your thoughts (or questions).

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me get this straight. You have to pay $250.00 for drinking that nasty $hit people call beer?

Most certainly -EV

[handsome]

This belongs in OOT (Other Other Topics).

[SoCalRugger]

If you were sober, why the [censored] did you admit to having a few beers?

[Zygote]

you dont have to be read your rights unless you have been put under arrest. you were just given a ticket and the officer has an obligation to tell you what the ticket is for, and he appears to have done so. you may now contest the ticket in court. your best shot is hoping the officer doesn't show up at the trial or just pay the god damn ticket.

[Niediam]

Pay your fine and don't be stupid next time. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[krazyace5]

I can't believe they can give you an mip when you don't have any liquor on you. They don't even have any evidence, fight it and deny deny deny, and next time lie. These cops sound like a bunch of petty dicks.

[smoore]

no blow, no go. (No intoxilizer, no evidence)

"No, I never said that. I told him I'd been at the party with her and then he gave me the MIP ticket."

You have to lie well to pull this off. If you start it, stick with it, DO NOT go back on your story.

Otherwise, pay the fine I guess.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
How was I supposed to know that what i said would have been held against me?


[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the post again. How were you supposed to know? You were talking to a pig.

Any pig on this forum will tell you the same thing.

Now you know why people like me hate/fear them... I'm a scumbag and they are there to bring us to justice.

Fear the police.

[gabyyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
no blow, no go. (No intoxilizer, no evidence)

"No, I never said that. I told him I'd been at the party with her and then he gave me the MIP ticket."

You have to lie well to pull this off. If you start it, stick with it, DO NOT go back on your story.

Otherwise, pay the fine I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great advice.. Tell him to lie under oath.

Geesh.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no blow, no go. (No intoxilizer, no evidence)

"No, I never said that. I told him I'd been at the party with her and then he gave me the MIP ticket."

You have to lie well to pull this off. If you start it, stick with it, DO NOT go back on your story.

Otherwise, pay the fine I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great advice.. Tell him to lie under oath.

Geesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not? cops do.

everyone does it man, I'm just trying to educate a pup in the ways of the "justice" system.

Well, I think it just wasn´t your day but I wouldn´t make things worse by lieing in front of a court because this can make things a lot more complicated and expensive.I think it´s not worth the worry to save $250. Just pay the ticket and forget the whole story.

[roundest]

Plead not guilty. Hope the cop doesn't show up to testify. They don't bother much of the time for such petty offenses.

Hmmm...of course he may not be required to if they consider the report to be enough. Who knows.

250 is a lot when you are just a college student, unless your parents will be paying the ticket, plead not guilty. If the cop shows up(he probably won't for a freakin MIP) tell them you were not in possesion of any alchohol. MIP's mean you have alcohol in your system of you have alcohol in your possesion. You had neither of those, the cop is a dick, you do not deserve the ticket. make something up, "i thought he asked 'had i been around alcohol'" "i was nervous and confused, i had never been aproached by cops like this" but the bottom line is, you had not had anything to drink. They can't give you a ticket for shi.t like that. It's like telling a cop you had a drink 3 days before and then being issued a ticket for it. again, just deny deny deny. Don't be intimidated by the court or the judge or the cop. they will let you off.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
Just pay the ticket and forget the whole story.

[/ QUOTE ]

not in the great U-S-of-A mang... that shiz follows you, even some BS ticket like this.

Lie. LIE LIE LIE.

[Chairman Wood]

1) This goes in OOT.
2) Student Legal Services. They are on the 4th floor of the union I believe. I think they have something preworked out with prosecutors for first time MIPers that isn't too harsh. Tell them your story and they might think they there is a way to get out of it without pleading guilty. I have a friend who is a cop with the campus police there (hell he may have even busted you) regardless he said that there is a best lawyer out of the bunch at SLS. I forgot his name but he usually goes into court with a jacket, cowboy hat and one of the cowyboy metal tie things with the medal near the neck and the two strings that hand down.

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
If the cop shows up(he probably won't for a freakin MIP)

[/ QUOTE ] I personnally know a few of these officers that might have been involved in this incident and the ones I dont that are UM cops feel the same way. THEY LOVE TO SHOW UP TO COURT FOR THESE THINGS! Most of the time they get time and a half pay to sit outside a courtroom, listen to music, read a book, bullshit with their coworkers and do whatever. It may not work that way in other parts of the country but there they do.

[edfurlong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the cop shows up(he probably won't for a freakin MIP)

[/ QUOTE ] I personnally know a few of these officers that might have been involved in this incident and the ones I dont that are UM cops feel the same way. THEY LOVE TO SHOW UP TO COURT FOR THESE THINGS! Most of the time they get time and a half pay to sit outside a courtroom, listen to music, read a book, bullshit with their coworkers and do whatever. It may not work that way in other parts of the country but there they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very very true. I don't understand all the talk about the cops not wanting to show up for court. Do you think they aren't paid by the hour? My cop buddies make 34k a year as their base salary. None of them come out the end of the year under 60k.
The cop telling you to move your car outside the airport is there for the same reason as the cop showing up for the court date. Overtime bitches.

[TheNoodleMan]

Demand a jury trial. They are so damned expensive that they'll often just drop it rather than continue.
Ahhh college, one minute you're totally gonna score, the next you're covered in some girls puke and talking to the police.

[miami32]

As a person with a criminal justice backround I feel I can answer this best. You have no defense. It's like if you let an officer in your house and he found a bag of drugs on the coffee table.

You told him you had drinks, you gave him the evidence. It's common sense not to tell an officer you did something wrong.

You are screwed my friend.

[tubalkain]

[ QUOTE ]
As a person with a criminal justice backround I feel I can answer this best. You have no defense. It's like if you let an officer in your house and he found a bag of drugs on the coffee table.

You told him you had drinks, you gave him the evidence. It's common sense not to tell an officer you did something wrong.

You are screwed my friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded. To quote Homer Simpson, G-I-L-L-T-Y.

[ QUOTE ]
I told him respectfully that I had a few beers but that I was in no way drunk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple. It was non-alcoholic beer, and you were in no way drunk. When confronted by the police you were confused, intimidated, and the most important thing in your mind was the well being of your friend. This is why you didn't think to tell them this until now.

Here's a way to get out of most small time offences like this and even DUI's...a lawyer friend taught me this, and anyone who knows the law, will just shake their heads at how obv it is. But it works.

Call the precinct, pretending to be your lawyer, ask to speak to the person in charge of scheduling court dates for the cops. When you are transfered to the right person, tell her that you will be out of town most of this month, and ask when the cop is unavailable to attend court. Most cops have at least a couple days scheduled for training or vaca per month. Then call the courts, with your ticket in hand, and tell them you want to schedule an arraignment for your ticket (if its a traffic ticket, you will get a lot of wtfs, but they have to legally do it). Tell the clerk the same story about you being out of town, and tell them you will be available such and such dates (when the cop is out of town, or training). You are gambling a little, but most likely the cop will not show up for the arraignment, and you are off scott free.

[ QUOTE ]
...a lawyer friend taught me this

[/ QUOTE ]

Your lawyer "friend" should know better.


[ QUOTE ]
Call the precinct, pretending to be your lawyer...

[/ QUOTE ]

Great idea! Let's compound a little mistake with a bigger one. Awesome!


[ QUOTE ]
Then call the courts...Tell the clerk the same story about you being out of town...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, it was such a great idea the first time, let's do it again!

Is this considered illegal? Would it work? He didnt elaborate on this much, beause it was drunk talk over dinner, and I was more interested in where we were going out next, but I took his word for it. But what if you have a lawyer do it for you, is it fraud? I cant see how they could prosecute you for anything like this?

[4_2_it]

Just go, tell your story (the truth that is) to the judge and maybe you get a reduced fine for being honest and trying to do the right thing by your friend.

[spamuell]

From what you've told us, I would definitely go with the whole, "I was confused and didn't understand what he was asking, I was concerned about my friend, I hadn't been drinking." Either claim you thought he asked if she was drinking or he asked if you'd been around alcohol.

Of course, I know nothing at all about the legal system in your state but I'd imagine that if they don't have any evidence that you were drinking and they do know that you were in a stressful and unfamiliar situation where you are trying to look after a friend and suddenly the police are interrogating you, it would be fairly hard to convict you because there's good reason to believe you would be confused. Especially as it is clear that you weren't completely drunk because you managed to look after your friend. This confusion about what was happening and concern for your friend's well-being (both because she was drunk and because she was suddenly being attacked for it rather than helped) is why you didn't contest the MIP at the time.

This just seems like common sense to me, I have no idea if it will actually work but it's what I'd do unless someone can explain why it's not a good idea.

[ QUOTE ]
Is this considered illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider calling the police and claiming to be an attorney to be making a false statement, which is illegal. If your actual attorney called and did it, although shady, is not illegal.

I doubt this whole scheme would work in any case. Most police departments assign their officers certain days for court every month and the officer puts one of those dates on the ticket. So, If you called to say you couldn't make it - if they did bother to re-schedule you, it would just be for another day when the officer was available.

I didn't mean to jump all over you - lying to the police/courts is never a good idea. If you can't decide whether you should lie or say nothing - always say nothing!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this considered illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider calling the police and claiming to be an attorney to be making a false statement, which is illegal. If your actual attorney called and did it, although shady, is not illegal.

I doubt this whole scheme would work in any case. Most police departments assign their officers certain days for court every month and the officer puts one of those dates on the ticket. So, If you called to say you couldn't make it - if they did bother to re-schedule you, it would just be for another day when the officer was available.

I didn't mean to jump all over you - lying to the police/courts is never a good idea. If you can't decide whether you should lie or say nothing - always say nothing!

[/ QUOTE ]

From what he said, that is the tricky part, getting the secertary at the precinct to give out the dates when the officer can not attend, ie., you will be on vaca for awhile and it would just be easier to give me dates when he cant attend etc. Im glad I dont get in trouble enough to have a chance to try this out, Im curious to if it works though.

[HopeydaFish]

It's fairly easy to get out of tickets like these, but you have to be prepared to lie under oath (and with the cop glaring at you the whole time). I've gotten out of a few traffic tickets this way. What you do is claim that you misunderstood the question that the cop was asking you, say that you thought that he was asking you if your *friend* had been drinking, not you. Say that you tried to tell the officer you misunderstood the question as he was writing the ticket, but he refused to listen to you at this point because he thought that you were just trying to talk your way out of the ticket. Be *extremely* polite and respectful and try to sound like a responsible young man as you explain your story to the judge. Say that you wouldn't have gone through the trouble of fighting the ticket in court if you were guilty, but you didn't feel right about paying a ticket that you didn't deserve, especially since you are a starving student and can barely afford to pay it.

The cop *will* show up in court. It's very rare that they don't show up. They'll get in trouble with their superiors if they don't show up to testify. As other posters have stated, in most places they get paid time and a half to go to court.

One strategy that works *extremely* well up here in Canada (not sure if it's the same in the US) is to request disclosure of all the evidence against you from the prosecutor before your court date. Legally, they have to provide this to you so that you can form your defence. Send a registered letter to the prosecutor's office so that you have evidence that you made the request. If you don't hear from them in a couple of weeks, send another registered letter.

One of three things will happen:

1) The worst case scenario is that they'll send you disclosure, and you'll see the evidence against you. This might be helpful when you go to court to lie under oath later.

2) They'll ignore your requests and won't send you anything. When you go to court, bring the registered letters as evidence that you requested disclosure. Tell the judge that you twice requested disclosure, but were ignored both times. You aren't able to formulate a defence because of this. The judge will then throw out the case.

3) The prosecutor's office will call you and tell you that they're dropping the charges. In my experience, this happens about 1/3 the time. It's too much of a pain to get the materials together and mail them to you. It's easier for them to just drop the charges.

One final thing: Read the actual law that you're being charged with breaking. There might be some element of the law that you will be able to use to get out of the ticket. It's possible that the cop wrote you a ticket for the wrong citation. For instance, the MIP law sounds like you need to be in *possession* of alcohol -- maybe that's how the law reads. If this is the case, you weren't in possession of alcohol, so you can't be guilty of the crime.

If you're serious about beating this ticket, there's almost no reason why you shouldn't be able to.

[UCF THAYER]

Well did you get laid or not?

[revlis87]

i prefer to stay classy... I could have but thats like taking money from a guy whose terrible... its just not nearly as fun as outplaying someone.

The problem is, for $250 or whatever, i dont want to lie under oath. i dont care about the money. i slightly care about taking classes if i have to do that. I DO care about a record because i KNOW in the next sevearl years i will have another one of these and i dont think this is a fair first strike. Legally, if i make a compelling case that there was no reason to be asked if i had anything to drink and that I was trying to help, do these count as mitigating factors or what?

[JcTc]

[ QUOTE ]
I told him respectfully that I had a few beers

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point you are screwed.

[ QUOTE ]
I DO care about a record because i KNOW in the next sevearl years i will have another one of these and i dont think this is a fair first strike

[/ QUOTE ]

As an isolated event, I would not worry about a "record" for a ticket for minor in possesion (depending on the state, but this is not something that should prevent from getting a job, a credit card, or require you to notify your new neighbors after you move into a new place).

Why do you *know* this will happen again to you again? Remove yourself from situations that would cause you to be ticketed again. I'm not saying don't drink or pick-up drunk chicks hoping to get some...just make better decisions.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
Legally, if i make a compelling case that there was no reason to be asked if i had anything to drink and that I was trying to help, do these count as mitigating factors or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you joking? a cop can ask you anything he wants to, its up to you to not be stupid enough to answer and give him a reason to give a citation.

did he give you a breathalizer or at least a sobriety test?

[UCF THAYER]

[ QUOTE ]
i prefer to stay classy... I could have but thats like taking money from a guy whose terrible... its what we do.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Legally, if i make a compelling case that there was no reason to be asked if i had anything to drink and that I was trying to help, do these count as mitigating factors or what?


[/ QUOTE ]

A cop can you ask you anything, but you do not have to answer. But since you did:

Judges LOVE to stick it to people who try to challenge the *grounds* of incidents like these and make an example of them. My advice is to earnestly say "Yes sir, I was stupid, I had a few beers, I did not drink to excess, I meant no harm/caused no damage, I was just trying to help the lady out, I am sorry!"

Or if you have the option to pay the fine w/o appearing court, that is even better.

Don't try to be Matthew Damon in "Good Will Hunting"

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
i prefer to stay classy... I could have but thats like taking money from a guy whose terrible... its just not nearly as fun as outplaying someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Off topic, but if this is your atitude towards poker, you might want to consider a new hobby/career.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Legally, if i make a compelling case that there was no reason to be asked if i had anything to drink and that I was trying to help, do these count as mitigating factors or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you joking? a cop can ask you anything he wants to, its up to you to not be stupid enough to answer and give him a reason to give a citation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This is like saying that if you commit a crime, it's a good idea to immediately blurt out what you did before the cop has a chance to read you your rights so that the charges will have to be dropped later. The cop doesn't have to read you your rights until you're placed under arrest. Until the OP admitted that he'd been drinking, he had no reason to give him a ticket.

And the OP wasn't arrested -- he was given a ticket. The cop doesn't have to read you your rights for something like that. Does a cop read you your rights when you're pulled over for speeding? Of course not. It's not a criminal charge. I'm wondering if MIP is in the same realm as a traffic ticket. I don't even think that something like this would appear on his 'record' -- it sounds to me like it's in the same category as a ticket for disturbing the peace or jaywalking.

[CORed]

I am not a lawyer, but this is how I understand the law.
The fifth ammendmant gives you the right not to be forced to incriminate yourself. The Miranda ruling, however, only requires the cops to advise you of this right when you are actually arrested. However, the best rule to follow when dealing with police is never admit to having done anything illegal. Don't lie, be respectful, but when they ask you a question that you can't answer truthfully without admitting to a violation, say nothing, or say that you have the right not to answer the question. This also applies to traffic stops. If the cop asks "Do you know how fast you were going?" or "Do you know why I stopped you." Don't admit guilt if you are considering fighting the ticket.

At this point, you should probably plead guilty and take your medicine. You admitted your guilt. Lying under oath could get you charged with perjury, which is a felony. It's not likely that they would prosecute perjury in a case like this, but it's not worth the risk. Also, when it's your word against a cops, usually a judge or a jury will believe the cop. You're only realistic hope for beating this is if you decide to fight it is if the cop doesn't show up for the trial.

[theweatherman]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were sober, why the [censored] did you admit to having a few beers?

[/ QUOTE ]

[HopeydaFish]

I doubt very much he's in any risk of being charged with "perjury". All he has to say is that he misunderstood the cop's question and that he hadn't had anything to drink that night. If he wants to further embelish the story, he can claim that he wasn't even at the party -- he can say he'd been called by his drunk friend to come pick her up and take her home. Unless they have a mind reader in the court that day, they can't prove that he *didn't* misunderstand the question or that he was at the party.

The fact that the OP wasn't found with any alcohol on his person, and that they did not give him a breathalyzer will probably be enough to get the charge tossed out. The OP really needs to look at the wording of the offence that he is being charged with. My guess is that circumstances under which he was charged will not fit the definition of the crime.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i prefer to stay classy... I could have but thats like taking money from a guy whose terrible... its just not nearly as fun as outplaying someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Off topic, but if this is your atitude towards poker /or getting laid , you might want to consider a new hobby/career.

[/ QUOTE ]

One day you will think back to this incident and laugh at yourself. Just learn from your mistakes and you'll be alright.

Best way to get out of this is probably a white lie, say you were confused and thought he asked if you were at the party, but were not drinking (you had a mid-term the next day, monday, whatever). When you get your warning, split the cost of her ticket, then hook up with her...please.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
All he has to say is that he misunderstood the cop's question and that he hadn't had anything to drink that night. If he wants to further embelish the story, he can claim that he wasn't even at the party -- he can say he'd been called by his drunk friend to come pick her up and take her home. Unless they have a mind reader in the court that day, they can't prove that he *didn't* misunderstand the question or that he was at the party.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the "right" answer. Change you story to something plausible to explain the drinks comment. Say you misunderstood the question and thought he was refering to your friend or some [censored]. Tell them you that's why you quickly added you weren't drunk or something.

Remember when in court, deny, deny, deny. With any luck the judge will reduce your fine to something a lot more reasonable.

[Shajen]

yeah, I always find lying to be the best course of action.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7037/138/320/wayne's-world-yes-officer.jpg

NOT.

A very effective strategy for this would be to get your first court date postponed and I doubt the cop will be non-lazy enough to find out the reschedule and attend. This will leave you without much rebuttal.

[Spota]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the precinct, pretending to be your lawyer, ask to speak to the person in charge of scheduling court dates for the cops. When you are transfered to the right person, tell her that you will be out of town most of this month, and ask when the cop is unavailable to attend court. Most cops have at least a couple days scheduled for training or vaca per month. Then call the courts, with your ticket in hand, and tell them you want to schedule an arraignment for your ticket (if its a traffic ticket, you will get a lot of wtfs, but they have to legally do it). Tell the clerk the same story about you being out of town, and tell them you will be available such and such dates (when the cop is out of town, or training). You are gambling a little, but most likely the cop will not show up for the arraignment, and you are off scott free

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I read that too in Kevin Mitnicks book, "The Art of Deception"

[RDWallace]

Im also not a lawyer, but......no it's not a bad holiday inn express joke, I worked at a firm over the summer and have had some similar minor run ins with the law in the past. The Minor in Possession charge won't hold up unless they can provide evidence that you were A) in possession of an alcoholic beverage at the time alleged or B) had alcohol in your bloodstream, thus making you the legal equivalent of an open container. Im assuming A does not apply, so we move to B. Since they did not give you a breathalyzer, your answer that "I had a few beers" is irrelevant unless placed in the context of a specific timeframe (and even then its shaky). You did not specify when you consumed these drinks so for all intents and purposes you could have been completely sober at the time of the arrest. They really need a breathalyzer result to prove an MIP so youre in luck this time.