Minimum hand to call here

[DcifrThs]

wierd...two very agressive players

one who will open raise virtually any ace and another that will reraise virtually any pair or decent hand down to like ATo or KJo.

UTG (who plays loose as well)opens (no read on his standards yet) first guy 3 bets (first "guy).

next guy caps(2nd "guy")

what is minimum hand to call these bets?

EDIT: you are in the sb.

EDIT #2: man i really [censored] this thread up. the question was so well refined in my head that i assumed everybody must know what i was thinking...apparantly, 2p2 MHL suffers from a shocking lack of ESP. full ring game. UTG=position 7. guy one was in MP somewhere, and guy 2 was either CO or BU (positions 1 and 0)

Barron

[bambi]

Depends upon what they are like postflop, will the pay off big if you hit? if they are aggro postflop and will pay off i call here with

AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AQs and maybe AQo,

But it depends on what they are like postflop.

[InchoateHand]

Standard disclaimers aside, I call with a lot here. Basically any hand that isn't dominated. That means I'm ditching AQo, but playing 99. I think with their relative location, UTG is going to play fit-or-fold on the flop. That means if you hit, you can let them go to war with eachother. Since you are probably going 4-way capped to the flop, it really depends on how these guys play post-flop, doesn't it? If they are aggressive enough in the wrong spots, wouldn't more SCs have added value?

Again, obviously I don't know what I'm talking about. But I think I'd rather have 78s than AQo here.

[newhizzle]

id say probably 99+, AQs, AKo, maybe KQs, that might be too loose tho, i dont know

HPFAP says in wild games, even if you think you are a favorite over your opponents ranges, you should only stick to AA, KK, QQ, and AKs, i dont know if that applys here tho

do you think "2nd guy's" capping range is significantly tighter than his 3-betting range, especially if an unknown was the opener?

[Dazarath]

If you're calling 87s here, are you calling it everytime it gets capped to you? I don't really see the difference between calling suited connectors/low pockets here versus calling them in a normal capped situation (against 2 aggro players). Obviously, this is not quite true. 1) the 3-bettor has Axo in his range 2) the 4-bettor has a lot more unpaired hands than normal. But the point is that you're still up against hands that you have to hit the flop hard to beat, and your implied odds are cut down to almost nothing.

As for the hands I'd call, I think AK and TT are definitely too strong to lay down against those ranges. I think AQ and 99 would be borderline. In pokerstove, AQ has more equity against #2's range than TT. I understand that pokerstove shouldn't be the determining factor for one's play, but it makes for a nice starting point. I'll put my vote for AQ+/TT+ and say the borderline hands are AJ/99.

If we assume that the 2nd guy's capping range is 99+/AT+/KJ+, then there's 6*6=36 combinations of pairs and 16*7=112 combinations of unpaired cards. (Someone check my math.) If you're playing hands like TT/99, I'm assuming you're looking to hit a set or an all-undercard board. So I guess you could estimate what percent of the time you hit the flop and how much you expect to make on those flops, and then determine if 99 is really playable. I think AQ dominates both of their ranges enough that it's a cold-call, but that's just my opinion.

[phish]

If I'm in a gambling mood, I'd add any pair down to 44, especially if I have position. I'm assuming of course that they're wackos after the flop as well, so if you hit, you get paid off good, and if you miss, you can dump easily.

I'd avoid the suited connectors that someone else has said they'd play since those hands can wind up trapping YOU for a bunch of bets post-flop if you hit a draw.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm in a gambling mood, I'd add any pair down to 44, especially if I have position. I'm assuming of course that they're wackos after the flop as well, so if you hit, you get paid off good, and if you miss, you can dump easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

why 44 and not 22?

[tonysoldier]

QQ, AKs - maybe JJ, maybe AKo

[Tommy Angelo]

"what is minimum hand to call these bets?"

The lack of mention of position in your initial post, and in all the replys to it so far, suggest to me that you and all the replyers see the answer to this question as being entirely position-independent, in other words, that everyone expects the correct answer for on the button to be exactly the same as the correct answer from the small blind. Is that how you see it?

Tommy

[InchoateHand]

I assumed, probably erroneously, that he was CO/Button. I'd like to see the action to me on the flop, and it makes the hands I suggested more playable.

I also said "I'd rather have 78s than AQo," I didn't say I'd call with it. I'm genuinely curious about the viability of big, non-nut draws in this position, and I think their postflop tendencies dictate a lot of this.

My handrange, as from my original post, was 99++ and AK.

And yes, I read in flat mode, so I realize this reply isn't going to who it should.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
"what is minimum hand to call these bets?"

The lack of mention of position in your initial post, and in all the replys to it so far, suggest to me that you and all the replyers see the answer to this question as being entirely position-independent, in other words, that everyone expects the correct answer for on the button to be exactly the same as the correct answer from the small blind. Is that how you see it?

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

yea i forgot to mention i was in the sb lol. i thought i mentioned that somewhere only to look back and not see it.

Barron

[IndieMatty]

Had a hand yesterday with similar players.

Raise - ThreeBet and I capped out of the SB with JJ

Flop was KQT, I bet, they both folded on the flop; weirdest hand I've played in months.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, obviously I don't know what I'm talking about. But I think I'd rather have 78s than AQo here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are crazy.

Hmmmm...

Good question, D.

I'd say all pairs, and the obvious hands like J-10s, KQ, A-J, but i'd dump A-9 off, but I'd probably call with a suited ace.

But, is this a full ring or SH? That makes a considerable difference here, or at least to me it does.

??