Freshly Played Hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

QTip

11-07-2005, 02:03 AM

MP2 is our very own BostonZak, a fine player.

MP3 is unknown to me. I watched him call 3 cold PF...and that much is useful anyway.

What do you think of my play thus far? And the river?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, MP3 calls, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)

SippinSoma

11-07-2005, 02:11 AM

Played perfectly. Value bet the river. I'm mucking if the donk raises though.

bambi

11-07-2005, 02:17 AM

why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

Alex/Mugaaz

11-07-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Played perfectly. Value bet the river. I'm mucking if the donk raises though.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you possibly value bet the river.

etizzle

11-07-2005, 02:34 AM

how can you possibly not value bet the river

Alex/Mugaaz

11-07-2005, 02:38 AM

Because there is only 1 hand that you beat when called? Am I reading the hand wrong or what?

SippinSoma

11-07-2005, 02:40 AM

You don't think the donk ever has A high or a pair of 9's?

SippinSoma

11-07-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because against an oesd/flush draw and overcards/overpair, our equity lead (if any) is borderline. We need a safe turn card.

Cumulonimbus

11-07-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd actually only "win" 1/2 a BB more ($2). And the reasoning behind not 3-betting is that he was waiting for a safe turn card (i.e. not an ace,king, or queen).

Alex/Mugaaz

11-07-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think the donk ever has A high or a pair of 9's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I think he has them quite a bit of the time. The problem is I don't think he has them more than 55% of the time he calls, let alone MP2.

Maybe MP2 will fold some better hands (possibly), but I doubt it with the limited info I have on him.

bambi

11-07-2005, 03:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd actually only "win" 1/2 a BB more ($2). And the reasoning behind not 3-betting is that he was waiting for a safe turn card (i.e. not an ace,king, or queen).

[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting for the turn to what? Donk it? i mean if you think we are behind then you should check/fold the flop, if you think we are ahead then we should pump it.

If you want to wait to the turn, shouldnt the line be check/call, then checkraise turn?

bambi

11-07-2005, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd actually only "win" 1/2 a BB more ($2). And the reasoning behind not 3-betting is that he was waiting for a safe turn card (i.e. not an ace,king, or queen).

[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting for the turn to what? Donk it? i mean if you think we are behind then you should check/fold the flop, if you think we are ahead then we should pump it.

If you want to wait to the turn, shouldnt the line be check/call, then checkraise turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me if my ranges are wrong, or my theories but here is pokerstove.

5,410,776 games 5.220 secs 1,036,547 games/sec

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.9036 % 39.74% 01.16% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 37.5508 % 36.30% 01.25% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 21.5457 % 20.49% 01.06% { JJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

It is on a flop like this you need to pump it while ahead.

Or am i wrong?

Jake (The Snake)

11-07-2005, 03:26 AM

I think this kind of depends on how Zak will play the flop with overcards. If he will raise with AKo for example, I like the play. If not, I'm not sure what line is best, but I think checking the flop first is probably better since you're only getting raised by hands that have you in bad shape.

Bet the river.

I also think this hand could be interesting from Zak's point of view: what if he has a hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? I think the flop decision there would be interesting... big pot with the potential to get Qtip to fold a hand like TT on the turn if something like a J or Q falls as well.

SippinSoma

11-07-2005, 03:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd actually only "win" 1/2 a BB more ($2). And the reasoning behind not 3-betting is that he was waiting for a safe turn card (i.e. not an ace,king, or queen).

[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting for the turn to what? Donk it? i mean if you think we are behind then you should check/fold the flop, if you think we are ahead then we should pump it.

If you want to wait to the turn, shouldnt the line be check/call, then checkraise turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me if my ranges are wrong, or my theories but here is pokerstove.

5,410,776 games 5.220 secs 1,036,547 games/sec

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.9036 % 39.74% 01.16% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 37.5508 % 36.30% 01.25% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 21.5457 % 20.49% 01.06% { JJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

It is on a flop like this you need to pump it while ahead.

Or am i wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 is more likely to play a flush draw or OESD draw like this rather than the range you gave him, in which case his equity is greater. It comes out to around 36/34/31 or so.

etizzle

11-07-2005, 03:32 AM

no is ever folding a better hand here. Also, no one has a 6 or an overpair or you would've heard from them by now. So, hmm.... what could they have...

bambi

11-07-2005, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd actually only "win" 1/2 a BB more ($2). And the reasoning behind not 3-betting is that he was waiting for a safe turn card (i.e. not an ace,king, or queen).

[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting for the turn to what? Donk it? i mean if you think we are behind then you should check/fold the flop, if you think we are ahead then we should pump it.

If you want to wait to the turn, shouldnt the line be check/call, then checkraise turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me if my ranges are wrong, or my theories but here is pokerstove.

5,410,776 games 5.220 secs 1,036,547 games/sec

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.9036 % 39.74% 01.16% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 37.5508 % 36.30% 01.25% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 21.5457 % 20.49% 01.06% { JJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

It is on a flop like this you need to pump it while ahead.

Or am i wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 is more likely to play a flush draw or OESD draw like this rather than the range you gave him, in which case his equity is greater. It comes out to around 36/34/31 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok i am assuming we are 36 or 34 from what youve given so this just proves my point, get the money in while in front, i know its only a small edge but it has to be pushed.

flopmonster

11-07-2005, 03:36 AM

bambi

11-07-2005, 03:45 AM

SippinSoma

11-07-2005, 03:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why no 3 bet on the flop, would have won 1 BB more?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd actually only "win" 1/2 a BB more ($2). And the reasoning behind not 3-betting is that he was waiting for a safe turn card (i.e. not an ace,king, or queen).

[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting for the turn to what? Donk it? i mean if you think we are behind then you should check/fold the flop, if you think we are ahead then we should pump it.

If you want to wait to the turn, shouldnt the line be check/call, then checkraise turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me if my ranges are wrong, or my theories but here is pokerstove.

5,410,776 games 5.220 secs 1,036,547 games/sec

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.9036 % 39.74% 01.16% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 37.5508 % 36.30% 01.25% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 21.5457 % 20.49% 01.06% { JJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

It is on a flop like this you need to pump it while ahead.

Or am i wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 is more likely to play a flush draw or OESD draw like this rather than the range you gave him, in which case his equity is greater. It comes out to around 36/34/31 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok i am assuming we are 36 or 34 from what youve given so this just proves my point, get the money in while in front, i know its only a small edge but it has to be pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the hands in Boston's range merit a flop cap. And MP3 will also sometimes have a better made hand or some sick combo/draw that ruins your equity. I'm sure there are even more reasons not to 3-bet here, but it's late and I'm tired.

And I'll be honest with myself - I'm not pumping 2% edges. I won't be playing long enough to reap the benefits.

flopmonster

11-07-2005, 03:51 AM

Nick C

11-07-2005, 04:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this kind of depends on how Zak will play the flop with overcards. If he will raise with AKo for example, I like the play. If not, I'm not sure what line is best, but I think checking the flop first is probably better since you're only getting raised by hands that have you in bad shape.

Bet the river.

I also think this hand could be interesting from Zak's point of view: what if he has a hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? I think the flop decision there would be interesting... big pot with the potential to get Qtip to fold a hand like TT on the turn if something like a J or Q falls as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think checking the flop is something to consider. If the action after that goes bet, call, then I think I like a checkraise. After a bet followed by a fold, I think I would just call. And if the action behind me went bet, raise, then I'd cold-call (unhappily, I might add).

Then again, I've been getting raised with overcards (when the guy with overcards is a PFR or 3-bettor) so regularly lately that I'm starting to think of it as an auto-raise. I don't know if that's going on at 2/4 or not, and I don't know how BostonZak plays. But if BostonZak will auto-raise, then I like leading the flop. I like QTip's line if he thinks BostonZak will auto-raise. I guess 3-betting the flop and seeing BostonZak's reaction to that could give QTip a better idea of where he stands, but with QTip's overpair + gutshot, I think he's seeing the river most of the time anyway.

I agree that this hand seems like it would be interesting from BostonZak's perspective as well. I don't think he has much folding equity versus QTip, though, unless perhaps QTip happens to hold specifically JJ and a Q falls on the turn.

Alex/Mugaaz

11-07-2005, 04:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't think the donk ever has A high or a pair of 9's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I think he has them quite a bit of the time. The problem is I don't think he has them more than 55% of the time he calls, let alone MP2.

Maybe MP2 will fold some better hands (possibly), but I doubt it with the limited info I have on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I re-thought this hand on the way home and realized I was wrong. I want to bet/fold this now, but depending on how tricky mp2 is that could turn out real, real bad. If he was super aggro I'd rather check/call.

WillMagic

11-07-2005, 04:44 AM

Your flop and turn plays seem fairly standard. 3-betting the flop doesn't accomplish anything, and you were right to call and donk the turn.

Bet the river. I don't see how this can be all that close. You can't check/fold, it's easy to fold to a raise, etc. Bet.

Will

WillMagic

11-07-2005, 04:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't think the donk ever has A high or a pair of 9's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I think he has them quite a bit of the time. The problem is I don't think he has them more than 55% of the time he calls, let alone MP2.

Maybe MP2 will fold some better hands (possibly), but I doubt it with the limited info I have on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

In position, sure, I'd check behind. But this is a pretty standard OOP value bet. We can't check/fold, and it's easy to fold if we get raised, and with these two factors in place it's an automatic value bet.

Will

QTip

11-07-2005, 08:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this kind of depends on how Zak will play the flop with overcards. If he will raise with AKo for example, I like the play. If not, I'm not sure what line is best, but I think checking the flop first is probably better since you're only getting raised by hands that have you in bad shape.

Bet the river.

I also think this hand could be interesting from Zak's point of view: what if he has a hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? I think the flop decision there would be interesting... big pot with the potential to get Qtip to fold a hand like TT on the turn if something like a J or Q falls as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think checking the flop is something to consider. If the action after that goes bet, call, then I think I like a checkraise. After a bet followed by a fold, I think I would just call. And if the action behind me went bet, raise, then I'd cold-call (unhappily, I might add).

Then again, I've been getting raised with overcards (when the guy with overcards is a PFR or 3-bettor) so regularly lately that I'm starting to think of it as an auto-raise. I don't know if that's going on at 2/4 or not, and I don't know how BostonZak plays. But if BostonZak will auto-raise, then I like leading the flop. I like QTip's line if he thinks BostonZak will auto-raise. I guess 3-betting the flop and seeing BostonZak's reaction to that could give QTip a better idea of where he stands, but with QTip's overpair + gutshot, I think he's seeing the river most of the time anyway.

I agree that this hand seems like it would be interesting from BostonZak's perspective as well. I don't think he has much folding equity versus QTip, though, unless perhaps QTip happens to hold specifically JJ and a Q falls on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was quite confident Zak would raise with overs there.

bobbyi

11-07-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
potential to get Qtip to fold a hand like TT on the turn if something like a J or Q falls as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I routinely fold open-enders on the turn getting 10:1 /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

jskills

11-07-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
potential to get Qtip to fold a hand like TT on the turn if something like a J or Q falls as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I routinely fold open-enders on the turn getting 10:1 /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I'm folding either but "open ender"?

11-07-2005, 10:42 AM

I like your play thus far.

I like check\calling the river. I think you'll find worse hands betting, more than you'll find worse hands calling in this situation.

brettbrettr

11-07-2005, 11:58 AM

I like the first three streets a lot. Note: if there was no call on the flop raise, are you three betting?

Against guys who won't bluff raise the river, I like betting. If you can induce a bluff from a missed draw, then I like a check call. You're almost never going to call and get raised by the other guy.

Eh, maybe I just like bet calling the river.

DMBFan23

11-07-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
potential to get Qtip to fold a hand like TT on the turn if something like a J or Q falls as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I routinely fold open-enders on the turn getting 10:1 /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I'm folding either but "open ender"?

[/ QUOTE ]

if a J or Q fell Qtip would have either a double gutter or an OESD

DMBFan23

11-07-2005, 12:13 PM

QTip bets, MP folds AK or something like AdJd and MP3 calls with 77 or 55 or if he's really bad then T9s, ni han. MP2 should basically never have us beaten here, he should be raising the turn with any overpair bigger than ours.

Jake (The Snake)

11-07-2005, 04:56 PM

Yeah I missed that obviously.

So are you just calling the flop if you have AK then if you are Zak? Lack of fold equity is making me think raising with overcards would be wrong.

Nick C

11-07-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So are you just calling the flop if you have AK then if you are Zak? Lack of fold equity is making me think raising with overcards would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, raising with just overcards is bad on this flop.

And I don't see any folding equity now (prior to the river, at any rate), unless QTip is firing with overs, since in the specific case of QTip having JJ with a queen falling, QTip would have a gutshot that I missed.

bobbyi

11-07-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I missed that obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry my response was obnoxiously phrased. I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep and wasn't in a good mood. I feel better now /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
So are you just calling the flop if you have AK then if you are Zak?

[/ QUOTE ]
I like just calling. Others seem to disagree (for example QTip says that this guy is a good player and also says that he would raise here, so I suspect that QTip may think it's a good play). I would be very interested to hear why.

The presence of the guy who called three cold is significant here. I think that for two bets on the flop, he isn't folding any hands that you want folding.

I guess the real question is whether you are ever ahead of QTip when he leads into you on the flop. Most people would go for a check-raise with overs plus the flush draw. The chance that he would bet out with overs and no draw (say, KQo) to try to work you off your hand seems miniscule to me. If there is a real chance that we are ahread here, then we need to raise, but I just don't see it and if we are drawing I think raising just makes it more expensive. It's simplistic, but we don't have the best hand, raising isn't in the average case going to get us through the hand cheaper and we have no folding equity, so it seems like this is situation for which calling was invented.

The past few months, my postflop play has gotten more passive than it's ever been and in spots like this it just feels right to me now not to raise, but toning down my aggression hasn't been working out so great results-wise (understatement), so I'd be very interested to hear if I've went insane and I need to be raising in spots where I don't like it like this one.

Entity

11-07-2005, 11:02 PM

If Zak had AK I really don't like his flop raise. I can't see not betting this river.

Entity

11-07-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I missed that obviously.

So are you just calling the flop if you have AK then if you are Zak? Lack of fold equity is making me think raising with overcards would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had black AK I'd give serious consideration to folding this flop. I think I'd peel but it's pretty close and I think I peel too lightly in these spots sometimes.

Rob

Carmine

11-07-2005, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I missed that obviously.

So are you just calling the flop if you have AK then if you are Zak? Lack of fold equity is making me think raising with overcards would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had black AK I'd give serious consideration to folding this flop. I think I'd peel but it's pretty close and I think I peel too lightly in these spots sometimes.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Well getting 11.5:1 AK has the odds to peel of course and if raising pushes out MP3 and gets us a free card it seems like a wise play...No?

QTip

11-08-2005, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
(for example QTip says that this guy is a good player and also says that he would raise here, so I suspect that QTip may think it's a good play).

[/ QUOTE ]

Zak is a fine player.

I do believe Zak raises overs here because he has a tendency to do so.

I don't like the raise, and would have simply called if I had the AK there.

I don't think Zak likes it anymore either.

Entity

11-08-2005, 12:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Well getting 11.5:1 AK has the odds to peel of course and if raising pushes out MP3 and gets us a free card it seems like a wise play...No?

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands do you put Qtip on here when he bets the flop? How often do you think you're getting a free card against him? Free card raises are one of the most overused plays I see people making all the time, especially with overcards.

Rob

Shillx

11-08-2005, 12:50 AM

Your flop bet is great if he will raise overcards here. It is kinda meh if he won't since you are roughly a 3:1 underdog when he raises (assuming he has 99+ and AK/AQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif). You will have to end up seeing a river at the very least against his range. If you check/call the flop and donk the turn, you can get away should he raise where you can't just toss her in to a flop raise. The qualifier is that you would have to also play big hands this same way (don't know if you do or not).

As an aside, a flop raise here with AKo is pretty bad against you. You aren't betting a draw in this spot (or at least I'm not), so his raise is essentially getting it HU with way the worst of it. I would be pretty suprised to see him raise a hand like black AK and thus I would check the flop and see what happens. Obviously a bet is called for if you are confident that he will raise with a worse hand.

Brad

So here is what I would do. Sometimes check/raise the flop with a diamond draw and sometimes check/call. Sometimes check/raise the flop with a set and sometimes check/call-donk. Always check/call-donk with something like TT. This way it is very tough for him to play against you since you are mixing it up well.

Jake (The Snake)

11-08-2005, 12:52 AM

Thanks for the great reply bobby and I agree completely.

I'm also in agreement with rob that the free card play with overcards is probably one of the most overused plays by 2+2ers... I have been playing them much more passively as well ever since that amazing thread that Nate started a few months ago.

The fact that so many TAGs raise liberally with overcards is something I now try to take advantage of, as QTip did here.

QTip

11-08-2005, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing them much more passively as well ever since that amazing thread that Nate started a few months ago.

The fact that so many TAGs raise liberally with overcards is something I now try to take advantage of, as QTip did here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. That's when I started calming down as well. Where in the world is Nate anyway? I was just getting some books for my kids at the library yesterday, and realized for the first time that Nate tha' Great was a kid's book character! Here I thought he just had a decent ego!

Edit: Middle Limit Holdem was good for this topic as well.

bambi

11-08-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing them much more passively as well ever since that amazing thread that Nate started a few months ago.

The fact that so many TAGs raise liberally with overcards is something I now try to take advantage of, as QTip did here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. That's when I started calming down as well. Where in the world is Nate anyway? I was just getting some books for my kids at the library yesterday, and realized for the first time that Nate tha' Great was a kid's book character! Here I thought he just had a decent ego!

Edit: Middle Limit Holdem was good for this topic as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you didnt take advantage of this, taking advantage would have been 3 betting the flop and leading the turn.

Anybody who isnt three betting this flop is losing EV, plain and simple

brettbrettr

11-08-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody who isnt three betting this flop is losing EV, plain and simple

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, no.

bambi

11-08-2005, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody who isnt three betting this flop is losing EV, plain and simple

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post this hand in th MH forum and see what they say i bet no one is not three betting here. Plain and simple

So umm yes

Shillx

11-08-2005, 01:30 AM

You are roughly a 3:1 underdog against just about any good player when he raises the flop. How exactly can we lose by not 3-betting here?

Brad

Board: 6d 8d 9h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 28.7525 % 26.86% 01.89% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 71.2475 % 69.35% 01.89% { 99+, AdKd, AdQd }

bambi

11-08-2005, 01:34 AM

Do you notice there is a third player in the hand giving us pot equity. about 34% which means its an easy 3 bet

Shillx

11-08-2005, 01:37 AM

Do you enjoy making statments (and they aren't even right) with nothing to back them up?

Even if the 3rd player will always call with a random hand, we are in a bad spot here.

Board: 6d 8d 9h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.1055 % 23.06% 02.05% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 58.1725 % 56.72% 01.45% { 99+, AdKd, AdQd }
Hand 3: 16.7220 % 15.86% 00.86% { random }

QTip

11-08-2005, 01:43 AM

I'm just curious how you went from uncertain responses like

[ QUOTE ]
Or am i wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

to dogmatic

[ QUOTE ]
plain and simple

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a buddy in the other forum with whom you've discussed the hand or something of that nature?

bambi

11-08-2005, 02:12 AM

It just seems to me that no one has even considered that i could be right, and yes i have posted this hand on another forum and a very high calibre player agrees,

And giving the villan exactly the AK, AQ of diamonds is completely unrealistic, youve aleady started he would raise overs here so you cant rule out black AKo. I have posted the proper hand ranges earlier in this thread.

Please tell explain to me why 3 betting this flop is bad.

QTip

11-08-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:
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It just seems to me that no one has even considered that i could be right, and yes i have posted this hand on another forum and a very high calibre player agrees,

And giving the villan exactly the AK, AQ of diamonds is completely unrealistic, youve aleady started he would raise overs here so you cant rule out black AKo. I have posted the proper hand ranges earlier in this thread.

Please tell explain to me why 3 betting this flop is bad.

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Much better tone, thanks.

Zak has said his range is the following (which I wasn't sure about at the time of the hand). TT+, AQs+, AKo

As for the other player, only God knows what his range is, and it probably doesn't "make sense" to any of us.

I think it may be able to be represented this way:

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:36.5147 % 35.00% 01.51% { TcTd }
Hand 2:37.1233 % 36.05% 01.07% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3:26.3620 % 25.41% 00.95% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s }

So, we MAY be pushing a 3% edge. As you said, there are times to push that and times to not push it. Just because you have an edge at a moment in a hand, DOES NOT always mean that you should be throwing chips in, and the next card can drastically impact your holding, and you can then get away from the hand more easily, or push a much better edge. Now, whether this hand falls into one of those categories or not is the question.

We obviously don't KNOW in the hand whether Zak has us beat or just has overs. So, we can discuss now what is correct play given the FTOP, but we really need to be discussing what is the correct play during the hand.

I'll admit, at the time, I really felt that my equity would increase with a safe turn card. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

Board: 9h 8d 6d 2c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:33.5809 % 32.39% 01.19% { TcTd }
Hand 2:40.4176 % 39.46% 00.96% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3:26.0015 % 25.43% 00.57% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s }

However, I did know I would be in much better shape if I didn't see an A or K on the turn:

Board: 9h 8d 6d Kh
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:15.3073 % 14.27% 01.04% { TcTd }
Hand 2:54.3410 % 53.33% 01.01% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3:30.3517 % 29.80% 00.55% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s }

Board: 9h 8d 6d Ah
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:11.8524 % 10.82% 01.03% { TcTd }
Hand 2:58.0604 % 57.00% 01.06% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3:30.0873 % 29.52% 00.56% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s }

So....

I do find this to be rather interesting. The only cards that increase my equity from the flop to the turn are a T or a 7 (a J also slighly increase the equity as well). All other cards decrease my equity, and some in a drastic manner.

So, perhaps this is a different scenario altogether. I'm not looking for reasons to not 3 bet the flop. I'm looking for what seems to be the best play, and that answer is not always black and white, and can go different directions depending on a person's style and other factors.

However, I will say this. Given the fact that the small equity edge you have on the flop WILL BE lost on the turn without the falling of 10 cards, I don't like 3 betting the flop. This is different than I originally thought as my reason for not 3 betting the flop previously was because I thought my equity would increase on the turn due to a "safe" card and I could push a larger edge; however, as we've seen, that's not true. So, I still like my play, but for a different reason.

Zak will most likely not fold his overs to my turn bet, but I like to continue to apply preasure on the turn in case that's what he's holding. Of course, I cannot fold to a raise (if he does so) because of my gutshot. Some may think that simply check/calling the turn if I was 100% positive Zak would not fold overcards; however, I like making him pay to catch anyway. Also, there is perhaps another benefit to betting the turn. If a blank hits the turn, and I bet and Zak doesn't raise, I can put him on overcards. This makes a river value bet a very easy decision. This is not to say that if he does raise the turn, I can put him on an overpair, since he could do so with something like AKs with a 4 flush as well.

Those are my thoughts. I'm happy to hear your response.

badbill7

11-08-2005, 12:16 PM

MP3 is more likely to play a flush draw or OESD draw like this rather than the range you gave him, in which case his equity is greater. It comes out to around 36/34/31 or so.

I think point here is we have no read on mp3 if he has three bet cc i wouldnt put him on pp or straight,flush any more than i would put him on chasing A high. Our friend mp2, since he is a poster of some renown, i have to put on the flush draw, mayebey straight draw to a lesser degree. So i bet river here feeling like i have a better than fifty percent chance of being ahead here.

QTip

11-08-2005, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is more likely to play a flush draw or OESD draw like this rather than the range you gave him, in which case his equity is greater. It comes out to around 36/34/31 or so.

I think point here is we have no read on mp3 if he has three bet cc i wouldnt put him on pp or straight,flush any more than i would put him on chasing A high. Our friend mp2, since he is a poster of some renown, i have to put on the flush draw, mayebey straight draw to a lesser degree. So i bet river here feeling like i have a better than fifty percent chance of being ahead here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another person spoke of the range I gave teh PF 3 bet caller. Honestly, his range doesn't effect the fact that my equity is going down on the turn.

However...it does effect my equity if a J falls. Now the effect has gone from positive to negative.

SippinSoma

11-08-2005, 12:31 PM

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 34.5043 % 33.61% 00.89% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 34.9350 % 34.04% 00.89% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 30.5607 % 30.38% 00.19% { 3d2d }

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 35.1360 % 34.08% 01.06% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 43.8378 % 42.78% 01.06% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 21.0262 % 20.84% 00.18% { 7c2c }

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.1310 % 29.25% 00.88% { TcTd }
Hand 2: 29.1963 % 28.31% 00.88% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 40.6727 % 40.50% 00.17% { KdQd }

Once the donk cold calls on the flop, these are our most likely situations. His only means to winning is a flush draw and we have no edge. If you 3-bet in this case, you're losing pennies off of every bet in the long run. If he has an OESD, you're making pennies when you 3-bet. If he has a combo like overcards + flush draw, you're losing pennies every time you 3-bet. In the best case scenario that he would cold call here with a pair and an underkicker (which is highly unlikely), you have a 43% edge and you're barely making pennies - ASSUMING they both CALL your bet. You may fold out the donk and Zak may cap, preparing you to fold.

Note how these are in the best case scenarios where your donk only has good draws. If he has an awesome combo, you're a dog. If he's slowplaying a made straight or set, you're a dog. If Zak only plays this way with overpairs and you're read was wrong, you're a dog. If you consider reverse implied odds, you're a dog. You're not bambi, you're a [censored] dog.

I would go into depth about the turn, but breakfast is calling. I really hope you see that because in the best case scenarios, you're a slight favorite or slight dog - in the average case scenario, you're likely to be a dog with no edge and 3-betting here has no positive purpose.

molawn2mo

11-08-2005, 03:59 PM

Forgive me for redirecting some of thought process here, a rather intriguing process, at that.

If we look at the hand from Zak's perspective. He raises the flop like any self-respecting 2+2er would do with a variety of hands including overs or overpair or strong draw (in this case a flushie). He gets call ed in 2 places and then faces hero's turn lead. Zak reads this a overpair 90% of the time, hero with a flush draw would likely choose a check raise or check call depending on where the bet came from. Zak, when faced with the turn bet must choose between forcing the unknown to call 2 cold and opeing himself up to being 3 bet by hero. When Zak chooses the passive line, his range of hands narrow to overs 80%, TT-QQ, 20% (obviously, arguable).

On the river then, hero ought be quite confident that he has Zak beat and ought not expect Zak to call a bet. Hero's consideration is how to maximize against the unknown and since there is no FE against the unknown IF Zak correctly folds when Hero leads the river. Concurrently, though, If the river goes check, check then unknown would be hard pressed to bet into 2 others, even weak others, with a hand that we don't beat. All in all the river is damn close.

Maybe the river logic could go something like... since bet/call only wins versus a bluff, then unless I can fold to the river raise, I should be satisfied with check call.

Too weak?

bambi

11-08-2005, 07:01 PM

Ok then tell me this, if we have no equity on the flop or very small amount, that doesnt justify 3 betting, why are we leading into the preflop raiser, asking to be raised? i mean oneits one or the other you have equity in which case you want to pump the pot, or you dont have equity, in which case you should make the play depending on what odds we are given to improve to the best hand, and leading into ZAk isnt that.

Also i think the amount of time Zak has AQ AK here greatly out way they times he has an overpair, just on a combinations basis.

The thoery of waiting to the turn to see what fails as you have found out is completely wrong, as when you start playing high uncapped heads up pots.

suppose you hold an OESFD, against a persons top and bottom pair,you want to pump this pot as you have equity, you cant say i will wait to the turn to pump it as if you dont hit, or he hits your equity goes down a hell of a lot, and you become a dog

chief444

11-08-2005, 08:09 PM

QTip just asked my thoughts on it. Without going into detail...I don't like it. I think he either needs to 3-bet the flop or check the turn. The draw-heavy board isn't as dangerous 3-handed as it would be more multiway...so MP3 is way more likely just overlay here than a risk of a good draw. QTip has a gutshot to go with his overpair and a BD flush although not likely worth much. So if he's thinking MP2 would raise A-high on this flop then I don't see how a 3-bet couldn't be right. If he doesn't think A-high raises then I don't see how the turn bet can be right. He told me he thought A-high raises. I thought that made the flop bet good but flop call bad. He can always revert to check/calling an A/K turn. The way he played it I think he's missing value on the flop. Either that or he's making a bad turn bet. But I like the 3-bet based on everything he just told me (which I assume is posted somewhere below).

Oh and obviously the river is a value bet since MP2 would raise better hands on the turn.

chief444

11-08-2005, 08:12 PM

Oh and...I think BostonZak's flop raise sucks. I don't know the results but I'm sure based on the turn it was AK/AQ and I see no point unless they were both diamonds.

QTip

11-08-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok then tell me this, if we have no equity on the flop or very small amount, that doesnt justify 3 betting, why are we leading into the preflop raiser, asking to be raised? i mean oneits one or the other you have equity in which case you want to pump the pot, or you dont have equity, in which case you should make the play depending on what odds we are given to improve to the best hand, and leading into ZAk isnt that.

Also i think the amount of time Zak has AQ AK here greatly out way they times he has an overpair, just on a combinations basis.

The thoery of waiting to the turn to see what fails as you have found out is completely wrong, as when you start playing high uncapped heads up pots.

suppose you hold an OESFD, against a persons top and bottom pair,you want to pump this pot as you have equity, you cant say i will wait to the turn to pump it as if you dont hit, or he hits your equity goes down a hell of a lot, and you become a dog

[/ QUOTE ]

Bambi:

I just asked Chief to post his thoughts and he agrees with you and your mid-high friend. I do see the inconsistency now in my line, but I still have some thinking to do. However, I will say I agree that waiting for no turn Ace or King is not a good thought. I can 3 bet and check the flop if need be.

I'm looking forward to more conversation in this thread as I'm still learning things here.

oh..and combo wise, he has 25 pairs and 20 overcard combos. This is based off his statement that his range is TT+, AKo and AQs+.

QTip

11-08-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and...I think BostonZak's flop raise sucks. I don't know the results but I'm sure based on the turn it was AK/AQ and I see no point unless they were both diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to say what you said about a c/r or bet/3bet line making it more likely to fold his overs on the turn.

SippinSoma

11-08-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok then tell me this, if we have no equity on the flop or very small amount, that doesnt justify 3 betting, why are we leading into the preflop raiser, asking to be raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

So MP3 folds.

[ QUOTE ]

Also i think the amount of time Zak has AQ AK here greatly out way they times he has an overpair, just on a combinations basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's difficult to count at the time, but there are more combos of pairs than overcards. 25 to 20 (TT+, AQs+, AKo).

[ QUOTE ]

The thoery of waiting to the turn to see what fails as you have found out is completely wrong, as when you start playing high uncapped heads up pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

[ QUOTE ]

suppose you hold an OESFD, against a persons top and bottom pair,you want to pump this pot as you have equity, you cant say i will wait to the turn to pump it as if you dont hit, or he hits your equity goes down a hell of a lot, and you become a dog

[/ QUOTE ]

O Rly?

Board: Js Ts 2c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.4848 % 48.48% 00.00% { Jc2d }
Hand 2: 51.5152 % 51.52% 00.00% { KsQs }

Jake (The Snake)

11-08-2005, 08:40 PM

Hey chief,

First, I am assuming that Zak raises overcards here. I think it's fairly clear that we need to bet the flop since we could very well have the best hand and can force MP3 to fold.

Once Zak raises and MP3 calls the raise, I don't think our equity edge is large enough that it would be terrible to just call and bet a safe turn, as Qtip and Soma were pointing out above. I don't see how Qtips play is inconsistent at all, I think he is just adjusting to the action behind him on the flop.

I'd love to hear from you how this hand differs from a typical "wait for larger equity edge on turn" hand.

-Jake

chief444

11-08-2005, 08:41 PM

Oh yeah. What QTip said. That is IMO even though the pot will be slightly bigger I think Zak is more likely to fold AK/AQ no flush draw on the turn IF QTip 3-bets the flop. The stop and go to me just screams "I might be ahead but I'm not sure...I don't want to give a free card but I don't want to get raised...I like my hand some but not that much...etc". It gives AK/AQ a good reason to call and JJ+ a good reason to raise again. A 3-bet gives AK/AQ good reason to muck (often incorrectly). Again...just my opinion. But that's even secondary to the fact that if he's raising AK/AQ on the flop...and you're fairly sure of it...you're missing value.

QTip

11-08-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to hear from you how this hand differs from a typical "wait for larger equity edge on turn" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to take a stab at this because I've been thinking about it since last night since I realized that my equity goes down on the turn given Zak's range as posted here.

I believe the reason is this. We have a drawing hand more often than he does here. So, our equity is going to go down as our chance to hit the gutter does down.

This is compared to when we have the made hand, and we're waiting for other's chances to catch their draws.

Fact is, though it's close when we pokerstove ranges here. We probably either have about 60% or like 20%. As mentioned, the idea of waiting to make sure a big card doesn't fall isn't a good idea.

umm.....am I rambling /images/graemlins/smile.gif

chief444

11-08-2005, 09:16 PM

The difference is he's OOP. So he's not gaining more on the turn when he has a larger edge...as he would be if he were in position and could raise. All he's doing really is missing out on a smaller edge now. And If he doesn't have a flop edge then his turn bet is probably not wise (that is if you're giving MP3 more credit than I am or if MP2's flop raise makes overs considerably less likely)

Also, I think you guys are worried too much about MP3 here. People who cold call 3 preflop are way more likely to just plain suck at poker than they are to be of great concern here. IMO he's overlay until he tells me otherwise.

chief444

11-08-2005, 09:24 PM

Waiting for the turn in any case is best done when your equity changes a significant amount (up or down). But as I pointed out above I don't see that as really applicable here...OOP and 3-handed.

QTip

11-08-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is he's OOP. So he's not gaining more on the turn when he has a larger edge...as he would be if he were in position and could raise. All he's doing really is missing out on a smaller edge now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah....

I don't get it.

chief444

11-08-2005, 09:41 PM

What do you gain on the turn by not 3-betting the flop? You bet a safe card either way yes? So the argument to wait for a "bigger" edge doesn't make sense here. Now if someone says don't 3-bet the flop because you don't have an edge...that would be different. However, from what I've read it's been pretty much agreed that there is a slight edge on the flop. That was my first thought as well when we talked earlier. If you have an edge on the flop, it should be taken advantage of then. Because calling the flop raise doesn't gain you anything on later streets. By the same token...if there's no flop edge...you should really just check/call the flop. Again...I'm not giving much credit to MP3. But that's what I'm saying is inconsistent. You call the flop raise as if you're behind but then lead the turn as if you're ahead when MP2's range hasn't changed.

SippinSoma

11-08-2005, 10:08 PM

After a long discussion with QTip, I decided that check-raising the flop is best, followed by bet/calling (and check/calling or check/folding the turn). I hope to hear everyone's thoughts on this and will post my own (well, QTip and I came to the conclusion together) thoughts tomorrow.

chief444

11-08-2005, 10:15 PM

I mentioned the c/r option to him as well. But since he's sure MP2 will raise AK/AQ and since the pot is getting pretty big I don't think it's better than bet/3-bet.

Also...I should mention that all my comments in this thread were based on my conversation with Qtip and knowing that he believed AK/AQ would raise. Without knowing that, I do like the bet/call flop line. But I'd check the turn. Because as I said I think Zak's flop raise sucks. But just wanted to mention that I don't mind the play in general. I just don't like it knowing Zak will raise overs.

ErrantNight

11-08-2005, 10:51 PM

Your equity regardless of position DOES change considerably if the turn brings a safe card. You're just not in a position to exploit it. Hence it's not worth forgoing the smaller edge on the flop.

bambi

11-08-2005, 10:54 PM

cheiff has basically said everything i was trying to get accross, i suck at english and writing so sometimes my point isnt clear.

this hand is completely different if Zak wont raise AK/AQ here, but we have worked out and agree that he would.

So we need to push our equity egde while we have it.

QTip

11-08-2005, 10:58 PM

To put some completion to at least this portion of the post, here's the rest of the action:

I'm so embarassed to admit that I checked the river. I knew it was stupid when I pressed the button if that helps /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I check, Zak checks, MP3 bets, I call

MP3 has K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Here's what it looked like on the flop:

Board: 9h 8d 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 11.5172 % 11.52% 00.00% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 45.9579 % 45.96% 00.00% { TcTd }
Hand 3: 42.5249 % 42.52% 00.00% { KdJd }

So, in light of this, it's cap this flop if I get a chance to be played correctly FTOP wise.

On the turn it looked like this:

Board: 9h 8d 6d 6c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 09.5238 % 09.52% 00.00% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 64.2857 % 64.29% 00.00% { TcTd }
Hand 3: 26.1905 % 26.19% 00.00% { KdJd }

As mentioned by chief, position plays an important role in waiting for position to push a larger edge, and I can't do that here.

As to Soma's recent post, I can go with all three lines here. I think the best lines though are c/ring the flop and bet/3betting the flop, and I think it's quite close. I may actually prefer bet/3 betting though.

chief444

11-08-2005, 11:04 PM

So your river mistake gained you more than you missed out on with your flop mistake...you lucky xxxx! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good night.

bambi

11-08-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok then tell me this, if we have no equity on the flop or very small amount, that doesnt justify 3 betting, why are we leading into the preflop raiser, asking to be raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

So MP3 folds.

Thats an added bonus, but it doesnt change the fact that we think we are ahead and should 3 bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Also i think the amount of time Zak has AQ AK here greatly out way they times he has an overpair, just on a combinations basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's difficult to count at the time, but there are more combos of pairs than overcards. 25 to 20 (TT+, AQs+, AKo).

correct i was wrong on this

[ QUOTE ]

The thoery of waiting to the turn to see what fails as you have found out is completely wrong, as when you start playing high uncapped heads up pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

If you are playing heads up and the bets are uncapped, if you have a higher than 50% equity edge you should be happy putting in as many bets a spossible
[ QUOTE ]

suppose you hold an OESFD, against a persons top and bottom pair,you want to pump this pot as you have equity, you cant say i will wait to the turn to pump it as if you dont hit, or he hits your equity goes down a hell of a lot, and you become a dog

[/ QUOTE ]

O Rly?

Board: Js Ts 2c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.4848 % 48.48% 00.00% { Jc2d }
Hand 2: 51.5152 % 51.52% 00.00% { KsQs }

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand, the OESFD is in front proving my point,

but have a look at the turn equity. when i blank hits

Board: Js Ts 2c 4h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 31.8182 % 31.82% 00.00% { KsQs }
Hand 2: 68.1818 % 68.18% 00.00% { Jc2d }

---

QTip

11-08-2005, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your equity regardless of position DOES change considerably if the turn brings a safe card. You're just not in a position to exploit it. Hence it's not worth forgoing the smaller edge on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Entity. Chief helped me with this a few minutes ago. I've never thought about it before, so it's exciting to learn something new.

QTip

11-08-2005, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
cheiff has basically said everything i was trying to get accross, i suck at english and writing so sometimes my point isnt clear.

this hand is completely different if Zak wont raise AK/AQ here, but we have worked out and agree that he would.

So we need to push our equity egde while we have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post was valuable for me. Thanks for continuing to push your thoughts bambi.

bambi

11-09-2005, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cheiff has basically said everything i was trying to get accross, i suck at english and writing so sometimes my point isnt clear.

this hand is completely different if Zak wont raise AK/AQ here, but we have worked out and agree that he would.

So we need to push our equity egde while we have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post was valuable for me. Thanks for continuing to push your thoughts bambi.

[/ QUOTE ]

No probs,

ErrantNight

11-09-2005, 12:21 AM

Thanks Entity? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Entity

11-09-2005, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Entity? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

QTip

11-09-2005, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Entity? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...my bad.

11-16-2005, 10:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also in agreement with rob that the free card play with overcards is probably one of the most overused plays by 2+2ers... I have been playing them much more passively as well ever since that amazing thread that Nate started a few months ago.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please post a link if you have it. Thanks

olavfo

11-17-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also in agreement with rob that the free card play with overcards is probably one of the most overused plays by 2+2ers... I have been playing them much more passively as well ever since that amazing thread that Nate started a few months ago.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please post a link if you have it. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
Bump. I tried to search for this thread, but couldn't find it. Anyone got a link?

Jake (The Snake)

11-17-2005, 04:36 PM

sorry i missed the request earlier...

it's here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2737416&an=&page=&vc=1)

11-25-2005, 12:35 PM

Hello, I am new to this forum, and I have to admit a little new to poker in general...but they say you have to ask to learn, so forgive me if I am missing some basic concepts.

I have read the posts, and the range of hands that might be applicable with their following discussions.

So, here is my question.

Based on the way the hand proceeds, why can't we put Zak on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, A(d)K(d), A(d)Q(d)? Though each individually has a small percentage of actually being present, they do seem to be consistant (at least from my limited understanding) with the way the hand proceeds...very aggressive up front, and then slows when the second 6 appears (over-pair concerned about hero with trips?...very unlikely but possible...or realizing hero probably has an over pair as well / Zak realizs he has him beat (a majority of the time unless he is outdrawn) and is trying to increase overall expectation by allowing TWO players to see the next card.

Just a thought.

I will check back to see what you all think.

Fammy