Should this have been protected on the flop? [Archive]

WalkAmongUs

11-06-2005, 08:53 PM

I feel like slowplaying this was ok. Comments?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, SB raises, UTG+2 calls, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls $2.75 (All-In).

River: (15.18 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 16.18 BB

11-06-2005, 09:04 PM

Nope. You want people in. Any ace will never fold any any pocket pair you want to call one much more than you want them to fold to two. Your only concern is how to get as much money as possible in.

numeri

11-06-2005, 09:05 PM

Not bad. Any villain is drawing to 2 or 3 outs at most. What the hell are you doing short-stacked, though? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

jacarney

11-06-2005, 09:11 PM

I think the slowplay on the flop is fine, but on the turn I think you need to raise. You'd love to go to war with an Ace (which it looksl like you did. On a side note, you should avoid starting a hand with only 5 BB in your stack - looks like it may have cost you a few bets on the river (forgive me if you already know this).

HouseCalls

11-06-2005, 09:15 PM

I'd like this play more if he flop came KK5. With AA5 I worry about the fact that lose players play A-trash which gives you some risk of getting burned by Aces full of trash. As a result I probably don't slow play this board.

11-06-2005, 09:23 PM

*grunch*

I think the slowplay is ok because it meets most/all of the conditions of correct slowplay:

1) You have a very strong hand
2) It's a small pot
3) The player directly on your right bet

A set on the flop (even bottom set) is monsterish - it is good multi-way, there is no need to knock out opponents. Obivously the AA on the board devalues the set a little.

If this were checked to us I would bet it vice checking though - no need to miss bets. Same goes if the pot were bigger. But, since others are willing to do our betting for us and there is no way we are going to knock out someone holding an A anyway, wait for the turn.

p.s. Having to go all-in is very bad on this hand.

WalkAmongUs

11-06-2005, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Having to go all-in is very bad on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. Trust me it sucked. I've been on a ~160BB downswing over the last 3,390 hands. Basically this almost wiped out everything I have in PP. All my other cash was on 2 other tables. I'm praying this thing is over soon. I've been wanting to vomit over being beat with garbage so much. You really do start to see monsters under the bed when you can never bet or raise without running into a brick wall.

Only thing I can do is study up and look for leaks I guess...

11-06-2005, 09:41 PM

Looks good to me.

Redd

11-06-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A set on the flop (even bottom set) is monsterish - it is good multi-way, there is no need to knock out opponents. Obivously the AA on the board devalues the set a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those two aces turn our set into a full house, making our hand fairly close to invincible (Barring the 4-outer that a lone ace can hit).

IMO the biggest mistake that the OP made was not having enough on the table to extract the maximum value.

11-06-2005, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Those two aces turn our set into a full house...

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, how did I miss that? Oh yeah, see my posts about drinking scotch tonight! At least I didn't say fold.

11-06-2005, 09:54 PM

I don't think we need to worry about protecting a hand this strong, especially in a small pot. We are only going to lose to a bigger pocket pair sucking out on us, who are incorrectly even calling one bet on the flop, or to an ace that hits its kicker, who again has only 3 outs and is calling one bet incorrectly. So we need to think about value. I think that with the bettor to our right I probably just call the flop, try to build a big pot, and get paid off on the big streets. As every one else has said you should always sit with enough $$$ so you never go all in.

11-07-2005, 06:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A set on the flop (even bottom set) is monsterish - it is good multi-way, there is no need to knock out opponents. Obivously the AA on the board devalues the set a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those two aces turn our set into a full house, making our hand fairly close to invincible (Barring the 4-outer that a lone ace can hit).

IMO the biggest mistake that the OP made was not having enough on the table to extract the maximum value.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG. This has got to be a joke.
FYP Redd.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3864601&page=9&fpart=1&v c=1)

To the OP:
This is a hand that should not be slowplayed. There are no str8 draws on this board. You are only going to get play from flush draws, Aces and pocket pairs. ie. There is nothing that anyone can pick up on the turn worth fighting for, that they don't already have now.

Aces will go to war, flush draws will stay because of the improbability of A5 and PP (drawing to 3-5outs)you want money from but you're not going to be unhappy if they fold (due to negative implied odds - they only go to war when they have you beat).

Housecalls makes the good point of preferring KK5. This hand looks very strong but could be outdrawn by 10+% of the pack (the more people in, the higher this could be). A lot of people will play Arag.

IMO. Put a large weight on the raise button and hope noone pairs their kicker (be careful if a broadway hits) and hope the flush card hits.

WalkAmongUs

11-07-2005, 08:28 AM

Its interesting that there is disagreement in whether this should go to war on the flop or be slowplayed.

A lone Ace isn't going to fold. It also has a decent amount of outs. The last 5 can cause a split, the last Ace gives quads, 3 outs for the lone aces' kicker and 3 outs for pairing the turn card (as long as they are both above 5).

With these taken into consideration, I'm thinking it might be better to go to war on the flop, when i'm positive I have the best hand. You know...take the money now while I have the chance.

Thoughts?

11-07-2005, 09:18 AM

2 things most people have failed to acknowledge.

1. An ace may only have 4 outs, but he has 2 chances to make those outs. The turn and the river. He is ~5:1 to win this pot on the flop.

2. His chances don't diminish on the turn. Any turn card gives the Ace another 3 outs with runner-runner boat. He is now 5.6:1 to win the pot.

EDIT: It doesn't matter what the turn card is (a 2,3,4 pairing still gives villian a bigger boat).

Stealthy

11-07-2005, 09:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

The last 5 can cause a split

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

WalkAmongUs

11-07-2005, 09:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The last 5 can cause a split

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. whoops, nevermind

i have this awesome habit of overlooking things first and then posting.

WalkAmongUs

11-07-2005, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2 things most people have failed to acknowledge.

1. An ace may only have 4 outs, but he has 2 chances to make those outs. The turn and the river. He is ~5:1 to win this pot on the flop.

2. His chances don't diminish on the turn. Any turn card gives the Ace another 3 outs with runner-runner boat. He is now 5.6:1 to win the pot.

EDIT: It doesn't matter what the turn card is (a 2,3,4 pairing still gives villian a bigger boat).

[/ QUOTE ]

At first this made me want to say i should wait for the turn in order to raise a safe card. However, i can't be sure that ANY turn card is a safe card. Villain could have any kicker to go with his ace.

Kwazzie has persuaded me to be in favor of going to war with this on the flop.

hemstock

11-07-2005, 09:57 AM

SB is slowplaying an ace for sure. You should have at least 12BB before every hand starts. You could then go ahead and cap the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Your only concern is how to get as much money as possible in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You will very rarely lose this hand with your flopped boat so get as much money in. You don't want people to fold so I wouldn't raise the flop.

imported_The Vibesman

11-07-2005, 09:59 AM

I don't mind the slowplay here on the flop, but I think I'm raising the turn when it's just the three of you. I do think some hands that will call for one will not for two on the flop, some will think the lone better is FOS concerning the ace.

JackThree

11-07-2005, 11:16 AM

i think the slowplay is bad, flush draw will call anyway, an ace may give you lots of action, your oppenents are bad, devaluing deceptive play.

I suggest a book: Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker by King Yao(a 2+2er)

Edit: And another book, Ace on the River by Barry Greenstein

supposedly buying in short in limit games is advantageous, according to his book

11-07-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2 things most people have failed to acknowledge.

1. An ace may only have 4 outs, but he has 2 chances to make those outs. The turn and the river. He is ~5:1 to win this pot on the flop.

2. His chances don't diminish on the turn. Any turn card gives the Ace another 3 outs with runner-runner boat. He is now 5.6:1 to win the pot.

EDIT: It doesn't matter what the turn card is (a 2,3,4 pairing still gives villian a bigger boat).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this really has any bearing on whether we should slowplay or not. We are never folding another ace, so the question becomes how do we get the most $$$ in the pot.

afk

11-07-2005, 11:27 AM

I would have played this the same way, however I wouldn't have been caught shortstacked. This is exactly the reason why you always have enough money at the table.

JackThree

11-07-2005, 11:44 AM

Supposedly not having enough money at the table to cap every street is better.

thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=holdem&Number=3035334&Sea rchpage=1&Main=3029808&Words=mini-buys&topic=&Search=true#Post3035334)

Paxosmotic

11-07-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Supposedly not having enough money at the table to cap every street is better.

thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=holdem&Number=3035334&Sea rchpage=1&Main=3029808&Words=mini-buys&topic=&Search=true#Post3035334)

[/ QUOTE ]
Not running out of money during a hand is better, period, dot, end of discussion, site any reference you want. Running out of money when you have a winning hand is a catastrophe.

JackThree

11-07-2005, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Supposedly not having enough money at the table to cap every street is better.

thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=holdem&Number=3035334&Sea rchpage=1&Main=3029808&Words=mini-buys&topic=&Search=true#Post3035334)

[/ QUOTE ]
Not running out of money during a hand is better, period, dot, end of discussion, site any reference you want. Running out of money when you have a winning hand is a catastrophe.

[/ QUOTE ]

read the thread.......

11-07-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2 things most people have failed to acknowledge.

1. An ace may only have 4 outs, but he has 2 chances to make those outs. The turn and the river. He is ~5:1 to win this pot on the flop.

2. His chances don't diminish on the turn. Any turn card gives the Ace another 3 outs with runner-runner boat. He is now 5.6:1 to win the pot.

EDIT: It doesn't matter what the turn card is (a 2,3,4 pairing still gives villian a bigger boat).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this really has any bearing on whether we should slowplay or not. We are never folding another ace, so the question becomes how do we get the most $$$ in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this answer really has any bearing on whether we should slowplay or not.

Paxosmotic

11-07-2005, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Supposedly not having enough money at the table to cap every street is better.

thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=holdem&Number=3035334&Sea rchpage=1&Main=3029808&Words=mini-buys&topic=&Search=true#Post3035334)

[/ QUOTE ]
Not running out of money during a hand is better, period, dot, end of discussion, site any reference you want. Running out of money when you have a winning hand is a catastrophe.

[/ QUOTE ]

read the thread.......

[/ QUOTE ]
I've read every word, and anyone who advocates short stacking is wrong and can just like it. If I flop AAK with AA and get all in on the turn, I may as well make icicles in my freezer so I can jam them in my eyes.

Buckmulligan

11-07-2005, 12:13 PM

Slowplaying this flop sucks because the same hands that aren't folding to villain's single bet are also not folding to your two (flush draw, 3 of a kind). In other words, there are several very specific holdings that stick around here to pay you off, and you might as well get value out of them if they are out.

I would also like to add that a double ace or king flop is always difficult to slow play for value because your coming to life on later streets teleports the hell out of your hand.

dagat

11-07-2005, 12:19 PM

raise flop. going for overcall is a mistake there.

11-07-2005, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2 things most people have failed to acknowledge.

1. An ace may only have 4 outs, but he has 2 chances to make those outs. The turn and the river. He is ~5:1 to win this pot on the flop.

2. His chances don't diminish on the turn. Any turn card gives the Ace another 3 outs with runner-runner boat. He is now 5.6:1 to win the pot.

EDIT: It doesn't matter what the turn card is (a 2,3,4 pairing still gives villian a bigger boat).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this really has any bearing on whether we should slowplay or not. We are never folding another ace, so the question becomes how do we get the most $$$ in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this answer really has any bearing on whether we should slowplay or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus, I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything.

KaiShin

11-07-2005, 12:24 PM

I think you should spend more time posting about and thinking about more marginal situations, rather than whether or not you got the most money out of your monster hand.

WalkAmongUs

11-07-2005, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've read every word, and anyone who advocates short stacking is wrong and can just like it. If I flop AAK with AA and get all in on the turn, I may as well make icicles in my freezer so I can jam them in my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

BUT, Since I was outdrawn on this hand I was glad I was shortstacked.

Hows that for results oriented thinking? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

bottomset

11-07-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A set on the flop (even bottom set) is monsterish -

[/ QUOTE ]

come on bro, bottomset is always a monster, well except in plo where its trash

sean c

11-07-2005, 03:28 PM

Hi Walkamongus i really think you need to bet and raise every chance you get. Either someone has an ace or a flush draw or they are folding. Slowplaying any street is just costing you money and i don't even think its very close. I think anyone that is calling one bet here is calling two(flop and turn).