Dumb and Dumber

[zman]

Hi, I'm not an NLHE or tournament expert, but i do try to improve my game, therefore please comment on this hand and the way it was played. There is no argueing that it was badly beaten, and there is nothing to be done about that, but i keep pondering wether I should have played it differently. I think I played it near to perfect and can't think of what to do differently, but... as I said, I think you guys know more than me. This type of hand comes up very often and it will be good to know of any constructive variations in play as well.

The setting is a $100 tourney at 24h, 2 $100 rebuys during the first four rounds and a $100 addon.
It's the ninth hand dealt in the tourney, no flops have been seen (=very tight crew) and I'm dealt KK in SB. Blinds are 15/25 and stacks 3000. Folded to CO, who raises to 50. Button fold, I raise to 120, BB fold, CO raises to 250, I call. Flop comes Kxx rainbow. I check, CO bets 300, I raise to 1200, he raises all-in (which obviously was my initial game-plan), I call. Cards faceup, CO's got the aces. Turn=x, and there wouldn't be a post if river wasn't an A!

Now, I keep asking myself if I should have played it differently. I think the outcome would have been the same tho; this guy was set to go all-in, no matter what, with his aces, but against sounder tourney opposition, would another play have been prefered? Also, I play some PLHE, how would play in such a game change your play of this hand?

Thank you for your time...

[ohkanada]

Lets see. You commit 250 pre-flop with the 2nd best hand, and your opponent commits 2750 post-flop with the 2nd best hand.

Next hand,
Ken Poklitar

[fnurt]

Clearly you should be thrilled to have your opponent all-in on the flop with only 2 outs. My advice to you is twofold:

(1) Get yourself in that situation more often; and
(2) Make sure you are not the guy with the 2 outs!

[Jon Matthews]

That's incredibly unlucky - AA vs KK on first flop.

I think your play was fine. Any bet adjustments would be trivial here. Maybe betting out all in on the flop could have got a fold? I don't know and I don't know whether I would do it anyway. I'm sure I would prefer callers.

Jon

[Byrn]

You played it well. Once the K comes on the flop and he wants to go all in, I'm game (as anyone would be). The A coming was just unlucky.

What part are you really unsure about? Pre-flop, did you think he had aces? I rarely play larger NLHE tourneys, but he seems to be saying AA-JJ with his re-raise. Maybe AK. You are a better judge of the specific game and circumstances.

I think calling and seeing the flop is ok, if you went all in pre-flop he would only fold a worse hand, not a better hand. If no K comes on the flop, thats where you might have to do some thinking...

[zman]

I agree with your preferences...
Although this was a rebuy tournament, my strategy was to NOT make any rebuys. If the K hadn't floped I would probably have folded to any bet. Now it did flop, and I of course set my eyes on his entire stack. Considering the 2-outer, and the possibility of it hitting, eliminating me from the tourney, is it the expert play to try to get him out coming out all-in on flop?

[zman]

Yes, you got the facts right. Do you have an opinion on the play of the hand? Do you consider it bad play to commit 7% of your stack on the second POSSIBLE best hand? I consider it very bad to commit 100% of your stack on a checkraise, no matter what you think of your hand. This guy must have had his rebuy $100 in his hand when raising all in.

[ohkanada]

"Although this was a rebuy tournament, my strategy was to NOT make any rebuys."

Although I am sure you have reasons for this strategy, since others may not have the same strategy you need to understand that they may play looser/aggresive and make calls that may not seem optimal because they plan to rebuy if they don't double up.

"If the K hadn't floped I would probably have folded to any bet."

So if the flop is 8 high you are mucking to a bet with KK. I understand the opponent mini-raised and re-raised but I doubt I would lay it down so easily on the flop. He could as easily have QQ. I likely lead into the flop if no Ace/King/Queen on the flop.

"Considering the 2-outer, and the possibility of it hitting, eliminating me from the tourney, is it the expert play to try to get him out coming out all-in on flop? "

You would like him to commit his chips as early as possible before he realizes he is a big underdog and mucks on a later street.

Ken Poklitar

[zman]

I was unsure wether it was the best/prefered play to try to suck him in for his stack, which i did, and succeeded, or to try to push him off, which I don't think would have worked in this particular case; but I mean in general.

[ohkanada]

I thought you played it perfectly /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

"Do you consider it bad play to commit 7% of your stack on the second POSSIBLE best hand?"

Of course not. Many players including myself have committed 100% pre-flop with KK. For 7% even if I knew the opponent had AA, I would be willing to play with any pair.

My point in my original message is he committed 2750 on a 2-outer. Even with your original 250, you didn't know he had AA but as I said even if you did it would be fine calling.

Ken Poklitar

[zman]

Yes, thanks for your comments, i do realize others may have different strategies than myself. And, this opponent had the one you mention, so in his view he was sucking me in. My main reason for the NO-rebuy, was that i figure sooner or later in the tourney, you got to start playing optimally, why wait till the last rebuy is made, why not do it from the start, let the others pay for their chips and cash in on a sound, as-optimal-as-I-can type of play. Then, that might not be enough in a specific situation, but I figure in the long run it will. To close my eyes, put my stack in the middle and pray did work for this guy, this hand. But I think I'll leave the double or rebuy strategy to others. At least when the rebuys are as high. Although even with $10 rebuys I try to win my chips as opposed to buy them. Then, I didn't say I WOULDN'T rebuy, just try to play so I didn't HAVE to.

As to the statement of "folding to any bet"... well, maybe I promised too much there, not ANY bet, but if the K hadn't floped, I would probably come out betting with something like a potsized bet, in this case around 500, I might have been raised with any hand, so it would have been up to judgement...

[cferejohn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
My main reason for the NO-rebuy, was that i figure sooner or later in the tourney, you got to start playing optimally, why wait till the last rebuy is made, why not do it from the start, let the others pay for their chips and cash in on a sound, as-optimal-as-I-can type of play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not take the rebuy *and* play optimally? If you know in advance you aren't going to take it, you are effectively making yourself a shortstack right off the bat, and I don't think even the best tournament players could overcome that regularly.

[Paul2432]

In reply to:
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My main reason for the NO-rebuy, was that i figure sooner or later in the tourney, you got to start playing optimally, why wait till the last rebuy is made, why not do it from the start, let the others pay for their chips and cash in on a sound, as-optimal-as-I-can type of play.


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Cferejohn wrote:
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Why not take the rebuy *and* play optimally? If you know in advance you aren't going to take it, you are effectively making yourself a shortstack right off the bat, and I don't think even the best tournament players could overcome that regularly
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Just to amplify on this point, during the rebuy period the strategy adjustment is not simply trying to double up with any old hand, but to take advantage of favorable situations that you may otherwise pass on because the risk to your stack is too great. For example, you might call all-in getting 3:1 pot odds when the odds of making your hand are 2.5:1. If you could not rebuy, in many tournament situations you would have to fold.

Paul

[Justaloser]

Now, I keep asking myself if I should have played it differently. I think the outcome would have been the same tho; this guy was set to go all-in, no matter what, with his aces, but against sounder tourney opposition, would another play have been prefered?

The only thing that might change things would be going all-in on the flop, but it sounds like he would have called anyway. Against sounder opposition, you're move might get AA to laydown.

Some people (me included sometimes) think "I've got pocket Aces, the flop doesn't matter". They usually don't make it very far.