School and community service

[11t]

So anyways I have heard talks of public schools starting to force kids to do community service to be able to graduate.

I personally think this is ridiculous.

The concept of forcing a student who is attending a public school to do community service as a requirement of graduation is the same thing as conscripted labor. I don't know who all have kids here and if they are in highschool or even if you care if the school is forcing them to do community service but I was furious when I heard this.

Am I being unreasonable?

[Lestat]

I have kids that are nowhere near high school age yet, but I wouldn't have a big problem with this. What's wrong with doing something for your community as part of a school project? What's wrong with teaching them that every little bit makes a difference? Etc.etc. I don't see how it could hurt.

[jt1]

I don't think you are being reasonable. 1) The service may teach the kids about different situations some people are forced to live in. This will help the student better understand some political issues as well as help them appreciate what they have. In that way it may greatly enahance some of these students quality of life. 2) Some of the kids may find that they enjoy the service where they may otherwise have gone their whole lives not knowing what they were missing. 3) Having high school kids help teach the 3 r's to little kids with negligent parents will help everyone. 4) What's wrong with conscripted labor? They're going to free public schools; we have the right to make them earn it.

[11t]

I think it is not so much "what is so wrong with that" sort of ting as it is me having a problem with PUBLIC schools (government institutions) requiring kids to do community service.

If you want your kids to do community service then talk to them about it.

I think this is a clear cut case of the government interferring in people's lives when they have no business to do so.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is not so much "what is so wrong with that" sort of ting as it is me having a problem with PUBLIC schools (government institutions) requiring kids to do community service.

If you want your kids to do community service then talk to them about it.

I think this is a clear cut case of the government interferring in people's lives when they have no business to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Optional service, sure and a good thing probably. If this is going on or starting to become a trend, then I think we are blurring the line of Church and State. Even though the Religion here is non-denominational so to speak.

[Lestat]

If I thought this had any religious ties connected to it, I'd be the first to object as well. But I just don't see how you guys are drawing a religious inference from this.

The object of school (public or otherwise), is to educate kids and hopefully turn them into productive members of society. I see no religious aspect to this, but maybe I'm missing something?

[11t]

There is no "religion" here it is just the fact that a public school has no right to force a kid to do community service as a condition of graduation.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
If I thought this had any religious ties connected to it, I'd be the first to object as well. But I just don't see how you guys are drawing a religious inference from this.

The object of school (public or otherwise), is to educate kids and hopefully turn them into productive members of society. I see no religious aspect to this, but maybe I'm missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

It has no religious context, you are correct. But, I see it as moral overtones. Once we allow moral overtones like this - then the line becomes blurred. Whose morals do we allow or not, etc.?

This particular example might be perfectly harmless - and or the good outweigh any bad. It is any precedent it might set that we have to watch.

[Lestat]

I don't know. I consider the public school system itself as part of community services we pay taxes for. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you're just being rebellious as in "Who do they think they are MAKING me do that?". I'm sure I'd have felt the same way when I was the student. I used to be very rebellious too. But as I grow older, these things just are not as important to me.

Maybe the biggest difference is that I can see how performing a small amount of community service for a very brief period of time, might be educational for kids.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know. I consider the public school system itself as part of community services we pay taxes for. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you're just being rebellious as in "Who do they think they are MAKING me do that?". I'm sure I'd have felt the same way when I was the student. I used to be very rebellious too. But as I grow older, these things just are not as important to me.

Maybe the biggest difference is that I can see how performing a small amount of community service for a very brief period of time, might be educational for kids.

[/ QUOTE ]
By that argument anything that might be educational could be justified.

I'm with RJT, still young at heart and rebellious against the silly rules of those aging into conservatism.

chez

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with RJT, still young at heart and rebellious against the silly rules of those aging into conservatism.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

If I learned nothing else while at college, I learned this from a friend who said it all the time - especially the morning after a drunken binge of his:

We are only young once, but we can be immature forever.

RJT

Doesn't really apply to the OP or Stat. I just like to quote it when I can. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I have kids that are nowhere near high school age yet, but I wouldn't have a big problem with this. What's wrong with doing something for your community as part of a school project? What's wrong with teaching them that every little bit makes a difference? Etc.etc. I don't see how it could hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem that I see is that I don't think this would teach them anything; students would view it as yet another meaningless obligation that they have to do to graduate.

If the government forced you into uncompensated labor when you were 18, do you really think you'd learn anything? I agree that schools are supposed to help create productive members of society, but I don't think they are very effective at it.

That's what jobs are for.

[ QUOTE ]
So anyways I have heard talks of public schools starting to force kids to do community service to be able to graduate.

I personally think this is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I graduated high school without completing community service. It was just a test grade in government class, for me anyway. I'm pretty sure you could just take a test instead if you didn't want to do it, although most people just did it anyway because it was easier.

[ QUOTE ]

The concept of forcing a student who is attending a public school to do community service as a requirement of graduation is the same thing as conscripted labor. I don't know who all have kids here and if they are in highschool or even if you care if the school is forcing them to do community service but I was furious when I heard this.

Am I being unreasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]
Doing community service isn't any different than being required to go to gym class, taking required courses, doing homework, or otherwise having to do anything that schools tell you to do to get the diploma. If you're saying that community service is conscripted labor, then you should also say that school is as well.

Edit: To answer the question, yes, I think you are.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]

If I learned nothing else while at college, I learned this from a friend who said it all the time - especially the morning after a drunken binge of his:

We are only young once, but we can be immature forever.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice one /images/graemlins/smile.gif I hope he made it.

I'm bowing out of this thread it's too depressing for words.

chez

[BluffTHIS!]

How bout a choice. The high schoolers can either choose community service while in school, or 2 years of military service after they graduate. Many countries have compulsory military service. There could even be a 3rd choice. Choose neither of the above and pay federal income tax at a rate 10% higher than normal for the rest of their working careers. What could be fairer than that?

[andyfox]

The school my son attends requires both community service and what they call "school service," wherein the kids must do work to help out at school--tour guide for prospective new parents, working as a tutor for kids in younger grades, working at the lunch stand, etc. I think both are great experiences for the kids. It's of the utmost importance that my son not learns to do the math. But not just do the math.

[HDPM]

I don't agree with public schools forcing kids to do "community" service. Private schools can do what they want. The government uses forced labor on community projects to punish criminals, so I really don't want my kid conscripted of he has not committed a crime.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with public schools forcing kids to do "community" service. Private schools can do what they want. The government uses forced labor on community projects to punish criminals, so I really don't want my kid conscripted of he has not committed a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

HDPM,

Eh, just tell him its for the things he didn't get caught doing. Just kidding, I agree with you as my post above states.

RJT

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with public schools forcing kids to do "community" service. Private schools can do what they want. The government uses forced labor on community projects to punish criminals, so I really don't want my kid conscripted of he has not committed a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow your line of thought. The government can also conscript innoncent people into the army. Why not just compare it to that instead? In other words, the government can conscript all sorts of different types of people not just criminals so why shouldn't it also have the right to conscript students?

Let me also address the morality in schools concern. I imagine that you are weary of the community defining morality since your morality may be different from the one that the community agrees upon. For example you may live in Topeka, Kansas where most people may think that gambling is a sin. I doubt you want your kid to think that his father is a sinner. And so from that point of view, I agree with you. However, the school is a public institution and the public funds the school to enforce a certain amount of social cohesion. I doubt your community wants there to be an enormous divide between literate adults who went to school and illiterate ones who had parents that could care less. To that end, the communities resources were pooled and a school system was developed. If it has the right to pool resources from individuals own private funds in order to make sure that all citizens have a minimum level of education then it has the right to decide what that minimum level is. In fact, the school can't exists without that ability or right. And once the geenie is out of the bottle....however you still always have the right to either move to a different community, fight for a different interpretation of what a minimum level is, or homeschool your child. I just don't think you can have public schools unless you give certain elected representatives the right to decide what the minimum level of education is.

[HDPM]

Well, there is always a limit. Yes, if things got bad enough my kid would be pulled from the school. Unfortunately where I live, my choice is religious school, public school, or homeschool. We will do public school with home supplementing and tutorting. However, my money is taken from me by force to pay for the school, so I do have some say in my kid being able to use the school without too much garbage forced on him by the rotten multitudes. So stupidity will have to be tolerated to some degree, but no kid should have his mind ruined by religious freaks destroying science in kansas or wherever. Likewise, no kid should be conscripted into government service without committing a crime. I don't care that the government has the power to have a draft. I do not support a draft, nor do I support conscripted service by schoolchildren.


Here's one other consideration. Remember the kids in trouble for alcohol or tobacco violations who were forced to pick up garbage on I-15 in Las Vegas? Remember how many were killed by the stripper falling asleep at the wheel?

[Token]

So maybe if the community service was to bring flowers to a retirement home you would feel that that would be the same as conscripted labor?

If this helps kids become better citizens then I'm all for it.

[Token]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there is always a limit. Yes, if things got bad enough my kid would be pulled from the school. Unfortunately where I live, my choice is religious school, public school, or homeschool. We will do public school with home supplementing and tutorting. However, my money is taken from me by force to pay for the school, so I do have some say in my kid being able to use the school without too much garbage forced on him by the rotten multitudes. So stupidity will have to be tolerated to some degree, but no kid should have his mind ruined by religious freaks destroying science in kansas or wherever. Likewise, no kid should be conscripted into government service without committing a crime. I don't care that the government has the power to have a draft. I do not support a draft, nor do I support conscripted service by schoolchildren.


Here's one other consideration. Remember the kids in trouble for alcohol or tobacco violations who were forced to pick up garbage on I-15 in Las Vegas? Remember how many were killed by the stripper falling asleep at the wheel?

[/ QUOTE ]

Man... you are a real glass half empty kind of guy aren't you?

[Darryl_P]

I'm against the idea but I'm not outraged by it. I figure public schools are where kids get their first dose of brainwashing to become obedient cogs in the big socio-technological machine. Community service is just another part of the modus operandi. I'd say it adds 2 or 3% to the whole package, max.

I want my kids to be anti-system like me and so my choice is between sheltering them from the system and choosing private or home schooling, or letting them be part of it and explaining where the trickery and coercion is along the way.

I figure the latter is better since you need to experience something first-hand to be certain that it's bad. My kids will suffer a bit no doubt, but IMO they will be better off in adulthood having no doubts about what to avoid and be wary of.

[TomCollins]

Forcing community service imposes the belief that you OWE your service to the community. In other words, the COMMUNITY owns a right to your labor, to your being, to YOUR LIFE. So what if it's for a "good cause". Set up a program that lets people volunteer for a cause they want. Have people do it because it is something THEY want to do, not because they OWE it to the community.

[Token]

You don't make any sense. Having kids help out their communities means that the communities own their lives? You imply that it bad, but then you say that would be okay if they were given a choice of causes? Can you restate your point?

[TomCollins]

I never once stated it was ok to REQUIRE service out of anyone. I did state that VOLUNTARY service is perfectly acceptable, and that I don't have a problem with schools ENCOURAGING but not REQUIRING service.

[Darryl_P]

I agree and I would prefer your system vs. the current one for sure, but I'm also pragmatic...if I'm going to rebel against the state I'm going to do it on more serious issues like taxation which is simply theft at gunpoint. The stakes are a lot higher there than a few kids running around picking up garbage or delivering newspapers or whatever.

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree and I would prefer your system vs. the current one for sure, but I'm also pragmatic...if I'm going to rebel against the state I'm going to do it on more serious issues like taxation which is simply theft at gunpoint. The stakes are a lot higher there than a few kids running around picking up garbage or delivering newspapers or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is more important than you think. How do you think the youngins get brainwashed into the attitude that you OWE the state.

[Darryl_P]

I think the main source of brainwashing comes from simply being forced to go to school in the first place and having to follow instructions from teachers (people who represent the state) all day long. They immediately learn that they owe the state a huge chunk of their time and energy.

Then there are the literature and history classes in which they learn how "great" certain people were who, well, represented the state.

And of course there are countless references to policemen and other government officials and how important their jobs are, how important it is to respect them etc. etc.

Basically I see it as a prison of sorts and if they're going to be spending time there anyway, I don't see much difference between getting brainwashed this way or that way.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically I see it as a prison of sorts and if they're going to be spending time there anyway, I don't see much difference between getting brainwashed this way or that way.

[/ QUOTE ]


This was my whole point. If communities have the right to force kids to get educated then someone has to be in charge of deciding how; naturally, their decisions won't be respected by everyone.

Some people will argue that the community has no such right. I disagree. Redneck parents, "Ma boy don't neeed no ed-u-cashin," don't have the right to severely handicap their children, just like they don't have the right to emotionally or physically abuse them.

Offspring aren't the property of their parents. They are the charge of their parents who must answer to the state. In turn, the state must answer to the parents. And any and all parents have the right to organize a change of state policy.

Otherwise, abused kids have no legal protections and the adult illiterate vote will push unqualified personell into the oval office and Congress. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Token]

[ QUOTE ]
I never once stated it was ok to REQUIRE service out of anyone. I did state that VOLUNTARY service is perfectly acceptable, and that I don't have a problem with schools ENCOURAGING but not REQUIRING service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a problem with schools REQUIRING math?

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
Offspring aren't the property of their parents. They are the charge of their parents who must answer to the state.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we take the current state as a given, then there is really no choice but to agree with you, because if I resist the state too much my ass will end up in prison eventually.

But I'm curious what you think about our closest mammal relatives, the chimpanzees. They don't need any organized force to tell them how to raise their young and they seem to be doing a decent job. We have much bigger brains and yet you're saying we need help? Do you not see something ironic or paradoxical here?

Or are you just merely saying that the majority want it that way (ie. they want the state in place as it is) and since they're powerful enough to resist opposition, the order of things is that they get what they want?

[HDPM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



Man... you are a real glass half empty kind of guy aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]



Well, maybe it is because I know that most people , and certainly most government school employees are brain half empty kind of guys. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never once stated it was ok to REQUIRE service out of anyone. I did state that VOLUNTARY service is perfectly acceptable, and that I don't have a problem with schools ENCOURAGING but not REQUIRING service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a problem with schools REQUIRING math?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even see how this relates. I do have a problem with a government monopoly of schools.

[Token]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never once stated it was ok to REQUIRE service out of anyone. I did state that VOLUNTARY service is perfectly acceptable, and that I don't have a problem with schools ENCOURAGING but not REQUIRING service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a problem with schools REQUIRING math?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even see how this relates. I do have a problem with a government monopoly of schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bear with me.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm curious what you think about our closest mammal relatives, the chimpanzees. They don't need any organized force to tell them how to raise their young and they seem to be doing a decent job. We have much bigger brains and yet you're saying we need help? Do you not see something ironic or paradoxical here?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. Chimp society is about a 100'th or even a million'th less complicated than ours. They eat ants and fruit. Furthermore, chimps don't have to worry about crime or invasion. We do.

Let's give the analogy a bit more beef. Lat's say there are several large groups of chimps in central Africa who are being slowly exterminated by poaching, war, farming and mining. Now these chimps were suddenly enowed with the smarts to organize ambushes and develop a chain of command. Furthermore, they developed a school to train their fellow chimps. For their own self protection, do you not think that the majority of chimps would have a right to force the minorty who didn't want to organize or fight or train to do so? In my opinion, it's a matter of self defense.

Now that is an extreme example, because, America is not at a point where our very survival as free people is at state. However, that is the whole point of the state: to organize a coherent defense against enemies. Where the state has no such right, it will soon be taken over by a state that does.

But let's, imagine, that America abandons its public education system. 100 years later, American business's have largely relocated to Europe, India and Latin America. Intelligent Americans have no choice but to follow them, and the majority of Americans and American business's still residing in America make up a revenue stream of about a third of what we have now. The consequences is that Canada now has 57 provinces. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Feel free to flame away. That was pretty ridiculous. But I did try to be logical so make your criticisms logical, please.

[DougShrapnel]

If you don't like it, tell the kids to get a GED. Problem solved. .

[Darryl_P]

Interesting take. I'm not advocating anarcho-capitalism but I do find it interesting that education has to be mandatory or else large numbers of people (maybe even the majority!?) wouldn't subject their kids to it. There are few examples which so starkly illustrate the difference between what people say they value and what they really value when the chips are down.

I agree with your comments about the chimps. It looks like their inability to form a state and initiate collective actions against humans is probably going to drive them to extinction. Of course if humans didn't have states, then maybe the chimps' plight wouldn't be so bad, but then again our job is to look after ourselves and not the chimps.

I'm not sure I agree that America's business and defense infrastructure would fall apart, though, if only education were taken out of the equation.

One reason is that education would likely get less expensive than current private education because of the increased demand and economies of scale.

Of course a tougher stance would need to be taken against crime. Punishments would have to be handed out more swiftly and in a less costly way.

Maybe there would even be an uprising by those who stay uneducated and they could eventually be granted a separate state. America would then be left with a bit less territory, but would have a population which values education more than it does now. That could even make it leaner and meaner than it is today!?

Anyway, the purpose of my original question was more to find out your thoughts rather than start a debate (which would likely be of the typical never-ending type). My vision of utopia is pretty extreme and few would agree with it, but IMO these are enjoyable mental masturbation exercises in any case.