QJh 15-30 quiz

[mike l.]

i have QhJh and limp after two limpers, one who happens to play decently i think. another decent player who likes to raise w/ position raises from the cutoff and the blinds come along. 6 players see the flop.

the flop is AsKh6h. checked to raiser who bets, folded back to decent 1 on my right who checkraises, i make it 3 bets, raiser caps it at 4, we both call.

the turn is the Ah. how should i play the rest of the hand? please be specific.

[Dynasty]

I think your hand is good. So, I'm betting and it's going to take a lot of action to get me to fold.

[elysium]

hi mike
i don't like it mike. i know the games you play in require seeing the river, but in spite of your 1 out, the way that this hand has developed requires that you fold. this is a gut fold.

[rtrombone]

That's a scary card given all the flop action by decent players.

The player to your right limped but did not limp-reraise. He probably doesn't have AA, KK, AK. Maybe A6s or 66. The other possibility is something like 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif .

The raiser, given the preflop raise and flop cap, has either AA, KK, AKs or AQs. Maybe AK or AQ.

The only way you're ahead, the way I see it, is if the raiser flopped a lone pair of aces and the limper has a smaller flush. There's a decent chance this is the case. This, combined with the possibility that I may be completely wrong, would lead me to bet/raise the limper if he bets.

If the limper bets, you raise, and both call, you're probably good. Bet the river (unless a K or a 6 comes). Call a raise. Same thing if the limper checks, you bet and both call.

If the limper bets, you raise, raiser 3-bets and limper caps, I would lean toward folding. I think I would also fold if the limper checked, you bet, raiser raised and limper check-reraised.

If the limper bets, you raise, raiser 3-bets and limper cold calls, I call. Bet the river if it isn't a K or a 6. (If the raiser wouldn't 3-bet with just trip aces, you can muck at the turn.) Follow this same course of action if the limper checks, you bet, the raiser raises and the limper cold calls.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Mike,
I'm betting the turn. If it gets raised and re-raised, I'd have to fold. Other than that situation, I'm going to the river. The only thing I'm not doing is getting overaggressive on this hand.
For complete peace of mind, I suggest spiking the 10 of Hearts on the river. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
BTW, this is a great example of a hand that makes your night or cripples you. Not just chipwise, but mentally. Putting 5 or 6 more BB's in and losing when you know you should have folded is just plain painful. Folding the best hand, even more so. Bet, see what the action is, and go with your gut.
I hope you took down a beauty, and cruised through the rest of the session /forums/images/icons/smile.gif .

[mikelow]

Go into check-call mode. Too much chance of a full house with all the flop action. A pairing heart isn't what you really wanted.

[J.A.Sucker]

On the turn, one of two things is gonna happen:

1. It's checked to you. You must bet in this situation. If the raiser raises you here, then call him down. If it's raised and reraised, then you may have to fold, but I would have to be pretty damn sure about that to muck the nut flush, despite the pair on the board.

2. If it's bet out, then raise. I'm not concedeing AK yet here, and you can be damn sure that those guys will be pounding an A here, as they should. Welcome to variance-ville, Mike. Hold on, 'cause it's gonna be a wild ride.

Preflop, I would consider raising. This hand would have been much easier to play if you were last to act, don't you think?

[Dante]

Are you suggesting that despite the 12 big bets in the pot he fold the nut flush on the turn for any bets? I'm not clear what you're recommending.

Dante

[elysium]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'd be more concerned about the guy on my right. Check-3-bet isn't going to buy him a free card, so I discount a flush draw. Good chance he has 66, maybe A6s. I'd bet if it's checked to me, but I'd be real surprised if it's not raised and re-raised back to me. In that case I'd fold.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Multitasking too much. Misread the post again. Guy on your right could well be on a draw and the one on your left could have AQ, AJ, QQ, JJ as well as any bigger hand. In this case I can't necessarily fear the boat without a lot more pressure. I don't see the gut on my left not raising even if he isn't full, so I'd check if it's checked to me, call if a bet comes from my right and make the tough fold if it's 2 more bets back to me.

[Ed S.]

I put your "decent player" that is limping in ahead of you with A,10 to A-k. How likely is he to limp with A-K or AKo early? I think he is check-raising to get you out and to isolate the pre-flop raiser. Or how likely is this player likely to play A-x suited or K-x suited from upfront? So with that Scare card Ace on the turn proceed cautiously. You are only dead to a King high flush or the Boat A-K at this time on the turn. Now its possible the pre-flop raiser might have AK, but you are going to have to find out on the turn with a check raise. If you get raised you might be in trouble. If its gets 3 betted to you on the turn you will probably have to muck. But thats ok. Atleast you have better information. Even though it will be a tough decision to make at the time.


Ed S.

[andyfox]

Conservatively. They can see the three hearts as well as you can. If they're still pumping, you're in trouble.

Specifics:

RHO bets: call. If LHO raises and RHO calls, call. IF LHO raises and RHO reraises, fold. If LHO just calls and RHO bets the river again, just call again.

RHO checks: Bet. If LHO raises and RHO calls, call. If LHO calls and RHO raises, call. IF both raise, fold. If RHO bets the river again, just call.

I'm less concerned about winning an extra bet or two here because I can lose and extra bet or four is I'm beat. I'ts not impossible RHO has something like Jh-Th and LHO doesn't have a full house, but it'd be quite a parlay if there is a raise at some time from both of them from hereonin.

[andyfox]

Mike has the nut flush.

[mike l.]

guy on my right checked, i checked, and flop capper checked.

now what's my play on the river when guy on my right bets into me and Qc falls??

[Dynasty]

now what's my play on the river when guy on my right bets into me and Qc falls??

Call and look for an overcall from a pocket pair.

[mike l.]

"How likely is he to limp with A-K or AKo early?"

completely unlikely. ditto AQ and AJ (AJo slim possibility). AT possible, A9o possible/awful. Axs definitely possible.

[mike l.]

"the one on your left could have AQ, AJ, QQ, JJ"

many of you seem to think the cutoff who raised preflop could be happily capping the flop w/ QQ and JJ on an AK6 board after two strong opponents have shown strength by checkraising and checkreraising him. fascinating.

[mike l.]

there is one play i didnt consider w/ my "one-outer" elysium and that was folding to one bet on the turn.

it's becoming clear to all of us that you are weak tight and make generally terrible recommendations. i recommend you read jim brier's book, maybe it will help you loosen up and call a little more.

[andyfox]

Who would call with an pocket underpair with an Ace, a King, a Queen and three heart on board?

I still would call here because I'd be scareds hitless. Bettor might have A-x or a smaller flush but I'd rather win just one bet than lose three, or have to fold to a 3-bet.

Tough for me to play in the middle.

[mike l.]

what if it gets raised behind me by the cutoff and guy on my right folds?

[andyfox]

You lose.

As frequently happens when one limps from middle position with QJs.

I'd probably throw in the last bet and tell myself I stink for doing it. I did it yesterday with a set of tens when I KNEW my opponent had a set of aces.

[Ed S.]

"guy on my right checked, i checked, and flop capper checked. now what's my play on the river when guy on my right bets into me and Qc falls??"



Well you can't like that card because that could of filled someone up. But the player in front of you may have been full since the turn. I would just call. Too much money in the pot to fold for 1 bet on the end.


Ed S.

[Ed S.]

"what if it gets raised behind me by the cutoff and guy on my right folds?"


Then I think the guy up front just had trip aces and now you are in a pickle vs a guy who is lose and raises with alot of hands. You have to contemplate how he plays hands post-flop and how far he takes hands and how he has beenn playing. Because this is a situational decision here. There will be times you will have a clear fold and other times you are not so sure what the clear decision is. You just might have to bite your lip here and see what he has. But like it said it all depends on what "reads" you have on him.


Ed S.

[DaBartman]

Well, hell, being stuck in the middle just sucks. After reading the preceeding posts, I get the impression alot of these guys do not think you are up against at least one made hand (AK, A6, 66). What can you beat here? AJ, AT. Anyway, I want to see the river here as cheaply as possible. Yeah, I know it seems wimpy. That board and action brings the wimp out in me. I don't think you had the best hand. If you did, I want to play with those guys, 'cause the pots I win will have a few extra bets in them. I very rarely make the big laydown, so I'll be there at the river, cheaply.

[mike l.]

"As frequently happens when one limps from middle position with QJs."

okay then poohbah what should i do? fold? raise? remember this is sloppy silly 15-30 hp game not commerce chocolate chip slugfest w/ snakehead limping w/ KK on my right. eve if id raised preflop cutoff wouldve 3 bet (he likes to raise) and it all wouldve still been a mess.

btw i won the hand, cutoff folded after guy on my right bet and i called. i was feeling sure cutoff would raise us both, holding AA, AK, or QQ. guy on my right flashed an A.

im very comfortable raising from all sorts of positions with all sorts of players in w/ QJs, but i figured w/ two limpers id just call and see what came on the flop.

[DaBartman]

I suppose afterday's A8s you just had to post a winner. Heh, Heh, that's the kind of s--t I would do!

[glen]

"i recommend you read jim brier's book, maybe it will help you loosen up and call a little more." lmao. . .

[mikelow]

Ok, you played it tight on the turn. Now I'd raise, as it looks like trip aces (no full house) or JT.

[DeezNuts]

Since I've seen the results, etc, I won't comment on the play of the hand except I would bet the turn and call one raise if it came back to me(2 raises is a fold in this situation, IMO) and/or call the river hoping for a loose overcall.

But my real question is, what hand did the cutoff have? Or is this just the usual LA "I'm gonna call 3-bets with this hand so I may as well cap(the flop)"? I can't figure this one out(Ks6s, with a loose PF raise?).

Fold QsJs after 2 limpers in a normal LA 15-30 game? Blasphemy! Raise, maybe in a loose, not too aggressive game.

DN

[bunky9590]

Alright, I'm going balls out with the nut flush, unless major , major action comes. They could have AQ, AJ , or you could really be in bad shape to AK or A6. I don't know at this point if he has Ace Face or AK so I'm betting the turn or raising if I'm not first in.

[Softrock]

Mike - FWIW I would most likely have played it just as you did. Usually with 2 limpers I'm limping along with this hand. Depending on various factors including how I happened to be feeling at the moment I might raise BTF but generally I'm limping and looking for a big pot..

If I did anything different it would have been betting the turn. However, if I was thinking clearly I believe I would have checked as you did. This is because I could not lay down the nut flush to a raise and also because a free card doesn't hurt me in terms of protecting my flush (ie. I'm not afraid of a 4th heart as I would be with a lesser flush - thus ironically I think holding the non-nut flush would give me more reason to bet the turn). One of my weaknesses however is playing too aggressively in this sort of situation and I'm afraid I might bet the turn here more than I probably should.

[elysium]

hi mike
well, your post ended on the turn. i knew that you would later address what happened on the turn, but ending your post on the turn as you did implied that some action took place. no, do not fold if checked to you on the turn, but do fold if there is any action that you can't close with a call of one bet. you avoided mentioning that it was checked to you and then checked down. why, i'll never know. i think eveyone was under the same impression. very misleading there mike. clearly you implied a senario in which you were sandwiched between two bettors and unable to close by calling one bet. what, were suppose to waste our time addressing a check around? what if someone recommended that you bet. he would be wrong too. everyone's answer would be wrong except for the poster who says that if checked to you should check behind for a check-down. but that means nothing happened on the turn when your post suggested that something did happen. and say what you will, you have no proof that you would not fold if bet into. so i can't be wrong. you know for a fact that i would have suggested that you check it along. if checked down then call 1 bet on the river. that is my advice dude.

[andyfox]

Remember, poohbah constitutes quantity of posts, not quality. I participate a lot on the Other Topics Forum, where men are empty overcoats.

Snakhead never limped with KK in his life (in a limit game).

You could raise and then see what came on the flop. How do you know cut-off would have 3-bet? And if he did, maybe he'd eliminate some of the others. If you felt he was going to raise no matter what you did, then you should have folded Q-J.

[mike l.]

"Snakhead never limped with KK in his life (in a limit game)."

ah but he would. he would trap me. ive never played against him, but i have nightmares.

"You could raise and then see what came on the flop. How do you know cut-off would have 3-bet?"

i dont but im saying in this case i think he would. he likes to raise and reraise. he's not a bad player though. although his flop cap in this case makes no sense to me. i guess deez' guess of K6s is the only thing that makes sense.

[pilchard]

I thought I'd give my opinion w/o reading the other posts so apologies if I repeat anyone.

Preflop looks as if nobody has a big hand (big pair or AK) apart from possibly the cutoff. However, there are many hands a player in his position could be raising with.

On the flop, checked to the raiser. There's a surprise, who bets. Player to your right raises. Probably an A. Slight chance A6 or 66. Raising with a draw? flush draw unlikely given your holding and the board. Straight draw could only be gutshot. So I would think A is most likely holding.

You raise, cutoff caps. Now your read here depends on the player and how sensibly he plays. Is he raising with a big hand or just because he feels offended at the action he is receiving after raising preflop. Call. Call. (Would player to your right fold a weak A here?)

On the turn when the A falls, are you against a full house? ie. AA, KK, 66, AK or A6. And if so, how will this manifest itself in regard to the betting.

Now there are two key points here:
1) Your opponents can see that the flush got there.
2) Anyone with top pair on the flop has not had there hand improved by the turn. They only move ahead of K6 (unlikely). However, poor players fail to realise this. ie. if the cutoff is a poor player he'll be loving his AQ now.

On the turn if the player to your right bets you have to at least call. I would just call though because I now think it likely that he has a FH. If it goes raise, raise I'd fold. If it goes raise, call (this is tough) but I'd now have to take someone serious and fold.

If the player to your right checks, I'd bet. If it goes raise, raise I'd fold. If it goes, call, raise, I'd fold. If it goes raise, call, I'd fold. If it went raise fold, I'd call and check call the river.

If on the river you see an A,K, 6 you are beat. However, if you are there at the river I'd bet if they only responded to you on the turn and check call in the other scenarios.

[Dynasty]

Snakhead never limped with KK in his life (in a limit game).

Everyone, including Snakehead, should give it a try. Start out by doing it with Aces if your nervous.

A couple weekends ago I struck gold with AA UTG when the player on my immediate left had KK. I limped, he raised, and a bunch of players callled two cold who probably wouldn't have called 3 cold. The betting was capped pre-flop and I got a check-raise in on the flop.

A pot which would have been about 10 big bets with me putting in nearly half of them ended up being about 25 big bets.

If Tommy can fold AA pre-flop, you can certainly limp with them. Call it a learning experience.