Misplayed AA postflop

[Indiana]

AA raised preflop and lost to all 3 callers by river. I know I played horribly post flop but this is an interesting example of how AA cannot hold up under multiway pressure:

PokerStars Game #2987831221: Tournament #14753738, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2005/11/06 - 12:18:27 (ET)
Table '14753738 1' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: EZEZEZ (1360 in chips)
Seat 2: TBPLANKTON (1645 in chips)
Seat 3: Indyguy28 (3150 in chips)
Seat 4: AUtigers78 (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: amoremio (590 in chips)
Seat 6: AcesJack (1035 in chips)
Seat 7: dan1864 (2920 in chips)
dan1864: posts small blind 15
EZEZEZ: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Indyguy28 [Ah Ad]
TBPLANKTON: calls 30
Indyguy28: raises 90 to 120
AUtigers78: calls 120
amoremio: calls 120
AcesJack: folds
dan1864: folds
EZEZEZ: folds
TBPLANKTON: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [5h Jd 9c]
TBPLANKTON: checks
Indyguy28: bets 240
AUtigers78: calls 240
amoremio: raises 230 to 470 and is all-in
TBPLANKTON: calls 470
Indyguy28: calls 230
AUtigers78: calls 230
*** TURN *** [5h Jd 9c] [Qh]
TBPLANKTON: checks
Indyguy28: bets 150
AUtigers78: raises 740 to 890 and is all-in
TBPLANKTON: calls 890
Indyguy28: calls 740
*** RIVER *** [5h Jd 9c Qh] [8s]
TBPLANKTON: checks
Indyguy28: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TBPLANKTON: shows [Tc Qc] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Indyguy28: shows [Ah Ad] (a pair of Aces)
AUtigers78: mucks hand
TBPLANKTON collected 2670 from side pot
amoremio: shows [5s 5c] (three of a kind, Fives)
TBPLANKTON collected 2405 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5075 Main pot 2405. Side pot 2670. | Rake 0
Board [5h Jd 9c Qh 8s]
Seat 1: EZEZEZ (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: TBPLANKTON showed [Tc Qc] and won (5075) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 3: Indyguy28 showed [Ah Ad] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: AUtigers78 mucked [Jh Jc]
Seat 5: amoremio showed [5s 5c] and lost with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 6: AcesJack (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dan1864 (small blind) folded before Flop

You just got unlucky: you were against two underpairs and they both flopped their set, then QT hit it's straight. I would be getting all my money in on that raggedy looking flop, depending on buy-in.

[Indiana]

This was one of those $13 qualifiers to the big show. I've won 3/4 this weekend on these beating out 17 other opponents each time.

Indy

[microbet]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t1000)
SB (t1000)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises to t50, MP3 calls t50, 2 folds, SB calls t40, 1 fold.

Flop: (t162.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets t15, Hero raises to t200, MP3 calls t200, SB calls t185.

Turn: (t762.50) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets t255, HERO folds, MP3 pushes, SB calls

River: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

they both had nines and split the pot.


I'm just posting that because I remembered folding AA overpair recently.

The situations are very different though and in your case, especially in a $13 buyin when you have that big a chip lead over the villians I think I would have pushed when it got to me the second time after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
AA cannot hold up under multiway pressure:

[/ QUOTE ]


AA vs 3 random hands has about 64% equity. That's ridiculous.

In many ways, AA is actually better multiway than it is heads up. Here's a list of AA's equity verses n-1 random hands multiplied by n (in other words, what % of your chips you get back after putting them in on average preflop):

(NOTE: these results are not fully enumerated and aren't incredibly accurate, but they can give you a good idea)

n = 2: 166
n = 3: 212
n = 4: 241
n = 5: 265
n = 6: 275
n = 7: 279
n = 8: 279
n = 9: 276
n = 10: 271.


Of course, you're not playing against random hands, but still.

[microbet]

I second this post. I don't want to give the impression from my other reply here that I don't like AA multiway.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

AA vs 3 random hands has about 64% equity. That's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never understand this thought process. Are you saying that AA is up against any two cards in these situations? I'd rather see how AA stacks up against any two random top 50% hands, or any two random top 30% hands. If you're going to do the work, that would be more interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AA vs 3 random hands has about 64% equity. That's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never understand this thought process. Are you saying that AA is up against any two cards in these situations? I'd rather see how AA stacks up against any two random top 50% hands, or any two random top 30% hands. If you're going to do the work, that would be more interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure:

AA HU vs top 50%: 84.8%
AA HU vs top 30%: 84.7%
AA HU vs top 10%: 84.5%

AA 3-handed vs two top 50%s (pretty inexact): ~69%
AA 3-handed vs two top 30%s (inexact): ~73%
AA 3-handed vs two top 10%s: 72.8%

The reason this works is one of the most interesting things about AA; it's basically 80-88% against every hand. Here are the extremes:

AA vs 89s = 77.9%
AA vs A7o = 93%

Compare these to AKo's extremes:

AKo vs AA = 6.8%
AKo vs K2o = 77.8%

or KK's:

KK vs AA = 18%
KK vs K2o = 94.6% (I think the best you can ever be preflop is 94.924%, which is KK vs. K2 in which the 2 is the same suit as one of the K's in KK).

Where did you find those stats? I can only find HU stats and would love to find odds for multiway pots preflop etc. Many thanks if you can point me in the right direction.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did you find those stats? I can only find HU stats and would love to find odds for multiway pots preflop etc. Many thanks if you can point me in the right direction.

[/ QUOTE ]
PokerStove can do these calculations. This particular simulation takes a long time, but it can be done. Link in the FAQ.

[TheTROLL]

www.pokerstove.com (http://www.pokerstove.com)

[valenzuela]

Nobody mentioned AA on a multiway pot with lots and lots of wild raising.
Sometimes u just need to laydown aces, do you really think u have everyone defeated on the flop, let alone the turn?

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody mentioned AA on a multiway pot with lots and lots of wild raising.
Sometimes u just need to laydown aces, do you really think u have everyone defeated on the flop, let alone the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
A bet of half the pot, a call, and a raise doesn't really constitute wild raising.

[valenzuela]

Indyguy28: bets 240
AUtigers78: calls 240
amoremio: raises 230 to 470 and is all-in
TBPLANKTON: calls 470
Indyguy28: calls 230
AUtigers78: calls 230
*** TURN *** [5h Jd 9c] [Qh]
TBPLANKTON: checks
Indyguy28: bets 150
AUtigers78: raises 740 to 890 and is all-in
TBPLANKTON: calls 890
Indyguy28: calls 740
Is this isnt wild raising then I dont know what wild raising.

[Indiana]

Valenzuela,

I did misplay this hand badly. It was my donk play of the day, in fact. I just thought it was funny that AA lost to all 3 hands by the river. I know the equity numbers well, but what is the probability that all three hands jointly beat AA by the river??? That's a much lower number.

Indy

[valenzuela]

Between 0,5 and 1% its my guess.

[Indiana]

Yah, anyway I learned some things here. When you get too many callers before the flop with this hand u prolly need to spike a set if there is any heat postflop.

Indy

Thanks to both for the information..

Regards

If anyone's interested, I noticed a link to a site with more accurate numbers than mine in another forum:

Poker Odds (http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm)