I started doing this lately...

[krishanleong]

should I stop?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Villian is 52/10/.8/36 over 734 hands.

Krishan

[pshabi]

What are you trying to accomplish? Free card? nice job. If not? Then, well, I don't get it.

[Wynton]

I do this 23.472% of the time against an unknown, which I think is about right. Against a LP, I believe it makes sense to do it somewhat more.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to accomplish? Free card? nice job. If not? Then, well, I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, basic free card play. HUSHers are correctly ingrained not to take free cards HU. I haven't really been using a free card play very often anymore. I've been building it back into my repetroire and was wondering if others use it/if it's a profitable move given my outs and the small pot size.

I have done the math and I think it's okay. Posted for some confirmation.

Krishan

[nfscreech]

I think it's ok.

Assuming your outs are clean, you're a bit less than a 3:1 underdog to hit your hand on the river. You're getting 4:1 on your money by raising the flop.

Edit: I don't really know anymore. Getting 3-bet/lead into on the turn really kills this play.

Considering the large number of donkbets being made lately, your play is becoming more and more standard as both a value raise and a free card play.

[Poldi]

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the large number of donkbets being made lately, your play is becoming more and more standard as both a value raise and a free card play.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it may be a valueraise, do you call a donk on a blank river card?

[setjes]

I sometimes take this line against passives. I fold to a riverbet

[kiddo]

Yep, I think its ok to do it for freecard.

What do u think he is betting on this flop that needs a freecard for u?

Wouldnt you prefer to have A-high, so u can call a river(bluff?)bet. Or would u bet turn ater raising flop if u had a good hand like AT?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes take this line against passives. I fold to a riverbet

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah the whole point of this line is to fold to a river bet.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, I think its ok to do it for freecard.

What do u think he is betting on this flop that needs a freecard for u?

Wouldnt you prefer to have A-high, so u can call a river(bluff?)bet. Or would u bet turn ater raising flop if u had a good hand like AT?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is a 3 or a pp 22-88. Generally I don't think passive players bet unpaired hands in this spot. It's possible that he has a 9 and possible that he has an ace. But I'd weight those much less that a 3 or PP.

Krishan

[Wynton]

What's your action on the river if villain checks and the river is a 7?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your action on the river if villain checks and the river is a 7?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check behind given the range I've put him on.

Krishan

[ QUOTE ]
If it may be a valueraise, do you call a donk on a blank river card?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes. It depends on the board.

[kiddo]

yep, totally agree, missread board, thought it was 2 flush which would have made it a bit trickier

[paco]

I've been employing the free card play alot more too. As you point out, the math works out if you have two clean overs and get the free card. This is a great bluff board for sb.

I would definitely fold to a river bet--If you're goign to call the river to a blank you should bet the turn and check river behind UI. Many times you'll go check check on the river and win with the best hand. Additionally, it discourages SB from frequently stabbing on rag boards as he should.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
HUSHers are correctly ingrained not to take free cards HU

[/ QUOTE ]

say huh?

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HUSHers are correctly ingrained not to take free cards HU

[/ QUOTE ]

say huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
Most of the time in shorthanded games, you can make such an immediate profit from the fold equity on your semi-bluffs that its less often correct to check behind for the free card.

[dave44]

Something that I've realized while reading this thread is that because I rarely make a play like this, most of the time I check behind on the turn I intend to call a bet. Folding a few times on the river like in a spot like this will encourage more bluffs those times I check behind with a hand I intend to call with.

[Megenoita]

Some problems I found with this play...when I raise the flop, all kinds of hands will bet the river and you'll be folding the best hand a lot. Especially when you do this play with an ace. Also, at 5/10 I noticed a much higher % of players who will 3-bet the flop with Ace high or better-now you have to call that, too, right? Further, there is a % of the time where villain pulls a stop and go.

The answer to this question is that if you KNOW you will get a free card, then it's better than just calling or folding. But in my experience too many things go wrong.

M

[ QUOTE ]
should I stop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Short answer: No.

This has to be part of an expert player's game. Of course, as with most moves/principles, it's all about applying it in the right situation. I think this is a reasonable spot though. A turn bet/fold with a river check behind would also be reasonable. River's a bitch if you miss and he bets -- his stats are right on the borderline for a call. With such a small pot I probably fold.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Some problems I found with this play...when I raise the flop, all kinds of hands will bet the river and you'll be folding the best hand a lot. Especially when you do this play with an ace. Also, at 5/10 I noticed a much higher % of players who will 3-bet the flop with Ace high or better-now you have to call that, too, right? Further, there is a % of the time where villain pulls a stop and go.

The answer to this question is that if you KNOW you will get a free card, then it's better than just calling or folding. But in my experience too many things go wrong.

M

[/ QUOTE ]

You can wrap percentages around the times is goes wrong to find out how often is has to go wrong to be unprofitable. Just saying it does wrong too often doesn't convince me. Also in my opinion you think the 5/10 game is way more aggro than it is. The stats of the donker are not the stats of a ace high 3-bettor. Plus if he 3-bets I'm folding anyway.

Krishan

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
Some problems I found with this play...when I raise the flop, all kinds of hands will bet the river and you'll be folding the best hand a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think a player's goal here as he moves up should be to offer his opponent a breakeven bluff at the pot on the river- that is to play a proportion of hands you'll call with versus hands you'll fold with that reflects the size of the pot. So yes, you will be folding some king or queen high winners (generally in small pots), but you'll also pick up more bets with your small pairs and ace highs that catch bluffs.