Do you agree with my choices ? (Interesting hand, I promise)

[huzitup2]

10-20 holdem

The game has several weak players but those involved in this particular hand are "competent".

I have T-T on the button and raise after four players limp in; the blinds are both loose and are bound to call with any "reasonable" hand.

The SB calls, the BB now re-raises, and everyone calls.

7 players for 3 bets each - 21 small bets (no rake, time ).

- Does anyone re-raise here ? (Just curious)

*

The flop: Qs-Tc-7s

*

The BB bets out and gets 3 callers.

I just call; I'm aware the flop allows for alot of draws who should be charged to play, but I can't rely on the BB 3-betting OR leading out on the turn if I raise here - and I REALLY want him to bet the turn. He will lead out on the turn, given there was no flop raise, with AA, KK, AQs, KQs or any two big cards that give him a straight (or possibly straight/flush) draw.

BTW, I assesed his possible pre-flop raising hands as,

AA, KK, QQ, (JJ?) AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs or AKoff.

I'm not sure he is playing badly by raising with any of these although I myself would not raise JJ or AKoff.

Considering that my button raise could be with many hands, are we in aggreement that his pre-flop re-raising arsenal is at least acceptable ?

5 players - - - pot = $260

*

I pinch myself when the Td comes on the turn :-)

The BB obligingly leads out (I love poker /forums/images/icons/cool.gif), and is raised by the player to his immediate left. The next one cold calls the raise. I call as do the other three.

- I'm wondering the same thing you are - how could 5 players still be around (what do they have ?) especially the two who cold called the double bet on the turn ?

Remember, these are the reasonable ones - or so I thought.

So who raises here ?

I tried to come up with a reason to and was unable. No way do I want to rock THIS boat.

5 players - - - pot = $460

*

The river is the Ks; well now EVERYONE ought to have something !

The BB fires, next to act raises, the next two fold (the first one showed his "big" laydown - Jh-9h), now it's up to me.

Spotting tells is not my strong suit but both the BB and the raisor are making room in front of them to stack this pot; it has to be KK and QQ, I'm just not 100% sure who has which.

I call, the BB 3-bets, next to act calls (OK - he has the QQ), and I finally get to make my only raise of the hand.

Both call and I win enough to pay next month's rent.

(I have a roommate and a great deal on the aptartment /forums/images/icons/grin.gif ).

- The final tally was an $700 pot... $540 in profit.

Nothing succeeds like success, and given the hands I was up against and the final board I can't see how I could have gotten much (if any) more out of this pot.

However - - -

Absent hindsight, where would those of you who wish to respond have played it differently, and more importantly why would you have done so.

I'm still a bit stunned by the hand - it was only a couple of hours ago - and I am completely open to the possibility that there may well have been a better way to play one or more of the rounds.

All replies will be met with great appreciation.

*

Sincerly,

- Chris

P.S. Who's clever enough to figure out the meaning behind "huzitup2" ? (Not me - a friend suggested it and I loved it).

P.P.S. Typed quickly and I'm very tired - if I miscounted the pot I assure you it wasn't by more than +/- 1 big bet.

I'm 99.9% sure about the rest of the details.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You hit a one outer, eh? Can't blame you, I wouldn't have played it any different than you did. I think you played it fine.

I wouldn't four bet pre-flop.

That K on the river was worth about $160 or so, because it kept him raising and in the pot.

not bad for your first post.

al

[Dynasty]

You should have raised the flop and 3-bet the turn. You knew people had some big hands so jam it up. With a Q and T on the board, most players won't fold AK or even AJ.

[Fmonti]

I wonder if the majority would raise preflop with 4 limpers?

[Inthacup]

P.S. Who's clever enough to figure out the meaning behind "huzitup2" ? (Not me - a friend suggested it and I loved it).

"Who's it up to"? Did that answer your question or is there some deeper meaning?

[CrackerZack]

Ni han

3-bet the turn. if the KK guy will call the 3-bet, you left $100 on the table, if not, you left $40, QQ may cap also and make it even more.

Any reason(s) why you won't raise with TT on the button? Just wondering.

[JTG51]

You missed a TON of bets.

Every post flop street could have easily been capped with 3 or 4 opponents. This is the kind of situation (quads over full house over full house with all kinds of draws) that should result in a 50 big bet pot.

You definitely should have gotten 4 bets on both the turn and the river. Not 3-betting the turn is a big mistake. There are SO many draws out there that will most likely keep calling, if you wait till the river you don't make any more bets from them when they miss. You have to charge them to draw while they are still willing to pay.

Just calling the river and waiting for someone else to 3-bet is also a mistake. This would be a disaster if BB had the QQ and decided to just call KK's raise instead of 3-betting for you. The way you played it probably gets 4 bets into the pot. If you 3-bet, you are guaranteed to get 4 bets into the pot.

Your hand was vulnerable to tons of draws with such a coordinated board to slow play. Iwould have followed conventional wisdom of charging drawing hands by raising the flop, then bet out or raise if bet into on the turn. What would you have done had a K, Q, J or a spade came on the turn and somebody led out?

Nice catch but too chancy especially in a 10-20 game.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[huzitup2]

I consider these both to be viable alternatives, but could you explain WHY (and how much better) they are than the choices I made ?

Thanks for taking time to reply,

- Chris

[huzitup2]

Interestingly enough I had thought this to be the only non debatable play of the hand.

If I don't raise from the button vs. 4 limpers with "T-T", what holdings DO I raise with ?

I'm eager for any response(s) here; I do not "abuse" my button [raising] priveledges but I would have - and did - raise with hands alot lower on the totem pole than "T-T".

I was very suprised - looking back - that "Q-Q" came in smooth pre-flop, but the small possibility that one of the limpers had a better hand than mine never entered my mind when I reached for my chips.

Am I missing something ?

Looking forward to any input here,

- Chris

[huzitup2]

Bingo - well done.

It's the most commonly heard expression at the 3/6 and 5/10 weekend holdem games in Atlantic City - with the possible exception of, "has anyone seen the cocktail waitress" /forums/images/icons/cool.gif .

It's usually used by someone who has been paying 10% attn. to the game and 90% to other things.

It's no longer a reliable tell that he/she has a big hand; it simply means that they are now ready to focus intently on the game - at least for the next 3 or 4 hands.

Regards,

- Chris

[huzitup2]

I'm not sure "K-K" would have called 2 more cold, but "Q-Q" would have definitely capped had I 3 bet.

But is this something I want ?

I'm reasonably certain to lose the drawing hands if I do 3-bet and "Q-Q' caps (given the paired board), and they are drawing dead. I hate chasing guys who have no outs.

Nonetheless, it is something to consider.

Thanks for the input.

- Chris

Chris,

Raising on the button with small pairs, IMO, is player dependent. I have raised on the button with 2s and 3s with tight-passive limpers and rockies.

Don't be surprised with the QQ limper. He may not have been as competent as you thought - just look how you led him to the slaughter house. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[huzitup2]

I didn't think the draws would have called 2 more cold on the turn if I had 3-bet and "Q-Q" had capped it.

If they would have called I did lose several bets.

If they would have folded it would have been a tragedy.

As I mentioned in a prior reply, I really hate to chase those who are drawing dead.

The "nut" flush draw would have called had there been one; other than that I don't see any drawing hand calling 2 cold after two players have shown that much strength.

I wouldn't unless both of the aggressors were certified lunatics.

Remember, neither of the tens on board was a spade; from their perspective it's quite plausible that one of the aggressors has As-Ts making it nearly impossible to get a call from a smaller flush draw.

A straight draw - which we DID have - would be more inclined to call, IMO, but even he might not pay 2 more bets go for 6 outs, none of which are even close to the nuts.

Still your input gives me more to consider for the next time.

Thanks,

- Chris

[huzitup2]

If a Queen had come on the turn I would [wrongly] have begun to think about how I was going to spend my winnings; I had no idea I was on the wrong end of set-over-set on the flop.

If a King, Jack, or spade had come I would have grinded my teeth, hoped for the board to pair, and wondered whether a more aggressive approach on the flop would have saved me the pot.

I now have still more to consider.

Thanks for the welcome; I'm quite glad to be here.

- Chris

P.S. To ALL who responded:

Were the mistakes (any or all) you feel I made horrendous, or did I play it reasonably well but not optimally ?

This is my deepest interest; I can live with not having squeezed the last dollar out of the pot - I'd be very displeased to think I had [substantially] lowered my chances of WINNING the pot.

Thanks again to all.

[JTG51]

I didn't think the draws would have called 2 more cold on the turn if I had 3-bet and "Q-Q" had capped it.

I think you are giving your opponents too much credit, or your game is significantly tougher than the 10/20 game I usually play in (which is very possible). Most players in my usual game will typically call any number of bets on any board with an open ended straight draw or a flush draw.

[Ed S.]

I think you played it reasonably ok. Not well or optimally. I would of definitely raised the river and not hope someone 2-bets. You would of had it capped on the river. The turn play is debatable, depends on what you put your opponents on and how much heat they are willing to take. So by just smooth calling was fine. But if it was 2 or 3betted after you called and or checked you should defenitely raised it then on the turn.


Ed S.

[Fmonti]

A raise is not going to thin the field...You are going to have as many as 6 players seeing the flop and unless you hit a 10 on the flop your chances are practically nil..Even if hit your 10 depending on the nature of the flop you may still be in trouble. However I would have bet the flop in this example.

[ElSapo]

I just wanna know where I can find an rent for $540...

Nice hand, but I would have raised the turn, I think.

ElSapo

[baseball38]

Chris,

Good job that is how I would have played it as well. Oh congrats on the pot too!

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[huzitup2]

Ah-ha, so someone thinks I got it right.

I just found my new best friend :-).

- Best wishes

- Chris

P.S. It was a nice pot... and it couldn't have come at a better time. Crushed the game that night, but that hand was almost half of my win.

Thinning the field is no longer the objective here. There are more under than overcards to TTs so you can't say that your chances of being the best hand is practically nil. Granted that in this particular hand, hero hit his set with an overcard and got "lucky" on the turn. Otherwise, he would have been hurt on the river. Let's say that the flop was Qs X 7s, EP bets, several callers to hero with TT. Would hero call? Probably not and neither will I. This game is player/game-texture dependent as the saying goes but not raising with TT on the button is too weak/passive for my taste. As I have stated, I MAY raise even with 2s on the button under the right conditions. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif