Flopped nut flush with 4 clubs in hand, river makes str8 fl possible

This is the first hand that Hero has played on this table. No reads.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.50 BB (9 handed) hand converter (http://www.nortx.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 ($15.45)
MP2 ($10)
<font color="#C00000">Villain ($48)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($50)</font>
Button ($37.55)
SB ($16)
BB ($78.80)
UTG ($21.35)
UTG+1 ($176.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $0.50, Villain calls $0.50, Hero checks, Button calls $0.50, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $1</font>, UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, Villain calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, SB calls $0.50.

Flop: ($8) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($14) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: ($14) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets $10</font>

Hero? Who folds, just calls, and re-raises here.

Furthermore, suppose you're the Villain and you have a K flush on flop against 7 opponents. What do you bet on flop (if anything) and what do you do on the turn and river when your opponent is so passive.

BTW, I'm not the hero so don't get insulting about the slowplay here.

[beset7]

raise flop bet turn raise river

just calling with the nut flush = bad. if he has a straight flush you should get stacked. Anyone disagree?

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raise flop bet turn raise river

just calling with the nut flush = bad. if he has a straight flush you should get stacked. Anyone disagree?

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I think it's particularily dangerous here (on the river at least) because there are only 5 clubs left out there. If villain has the K and one other club, then there is a 1 in 4 chance (at least) that he has the str8 flush. At a minimum, there are only 10 possible 2 club hands out there, 1 of which is the str8 flush.

Would you like Hero's play here much better if he had the 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif thus making the str8 flush impossible?

Finally, when you say "should get stacked" do you mean that Hero deserves it for his slowplay, or that it's the rare price one must be willing to pay for getting full value for a 95% nut hand (like top boat vs. the rare quad)?

[beset7]

Will he only pot the river with a straight flush? We don't know because we have no reads. So, I'm all for getting full value of my Ace-High flush since its good here a majority of the time (yes a SF is more likely here then normal but still not the most likely hand). I'm just saying that barring a strong read just calling here or much, much worse, &lt;gasp&gt; folding would be putrid.

Plus tell "Hero" to that fastplaying is the new slowplaying.

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I'm just saying that barring a strong read just calling here or much, much worse, &lt;gasp&gt; folding would be putrid.

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I agree, folding is putrid. I was just wondering if Villain's hand was obvious to anyone else other than me. But couldn't you argue that almost no one calls Hero's river raise here except the str8 flush.

If I had just the K flush in villain's position then I would fold rather willingly since I'd feel it was obvious Hero had the Ace high flush, at least a lot more often then 2 times in 3. It's the checked turn/river raise that clinches it for me. At least, that's what I was thinking when it happened.

[beset7]

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I'm just saying that barring a strong read just calling here or much, much worse, &lt;gasp&gt; folding would be putrid.

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I agree, folding is putrid. I was just wondering if Villain's hand was obvious to anyone else other than me. But couldn't you argue that almost no one calls Hero's river raise here except the str8 flush.


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You could argue that but it would be in direct contrast to my experience of people calling off stacks with 2nd nut flushes. Sure, that would be the justification for just calling, but I think it'd be pretty weak.

[ipp147]

Hi.

Reraise on the flop and bet the turn. If he has a K high /images/graemlins/club.gif flush he probably pays off here. I might even lead this flop from the CO and make it look like a steal.

If you do this the hand plays out differently but raise that river. If he has a str8 flush then I'm stacked here.

Do not underestimate people's stupidity in these games.

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You could argue that but it would be in direct contrast to my experience of people calling off stacks with 2nd nut flushes. Sure, that would be the justification for just calling, but I think it'd be pretty weak.

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OK, how about you then? How often do you call from Villain's position after a pot sized re-raise from Hero? Do you thing second flush is good more than 1 time in 3?

I'd really like to know since I used to treat 2nd flushes like the plague. Lately, I've been more agressive with them and it's been paying off I think. At least as long as I'm the one who's doing the betting. There are two things I'm looking for in my opponent when I have the 2nd flush: too passive, or too aggressive. Either one make me think he has the nuts. If someone acts passive like Hero does here and suddenly wakes up on the river when a rag hits, I'm bailing.

BTW, i did a little math and it turns out that on this 4 suit board, a player with Kx is beaten by 6 possible Ax and T8, and beats 14 other flushes + all sets (of course) + naked Ac. But this is no way to play a naked Ace so I'll rule that out. Without an A though, isn't a pot raise an extreme -EV play? Or would you say the sub-pot bets by the Villain strongly indicate an aceless hand?

Hmm, I'm starting to understand a lot better why higher limit PLO looks a lot like donkey micro-limit sometimes.

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Hi.

Reraise on the flop and bet the turn. If he has a K high /images/graemlins/club.gif flush he probably pays off here.

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Yes, I agree. I feel this is obvious. Just about the only time I don't do this is when I'm OOP against an aggressive player who I'm pretty sure does not have a set. Like say, I lead flop with nuts from EP and he mini-raises me from LP.

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I might even lead this flop from the CO and make it look like a steal.

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I'm confused now. How can you lead from CO if MP leads first? Or are you just talking about this hand in general?

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If you do this the hand plays out differently but raise that river. If he has a str8 flush then I'm stacked here.

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Yes, I don't mind getting stacked if I made him pay for it, but man do I hate it if I handed him 2 free cards.

But lets say for some bizarre reason you gave him 2 free cards as Hero does here. Do you still let yourself get stacked when the str8 flush is as likely as it is here?

Oh and if you've read this far and haven't figured it out yet, I'm the villain in this hand, and I did have the K /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. Any thoughts on my flop and turn play? Was my flop bet too small to gather useful information? Was my Kx too obvious?

On the flop I was just hoping to pick up the pot or gain a little information from a preferrably OOP player. I did not like the cold call from CO. Although I liked it a lot better than a mini-raise. I was prepared to bail on the turn to a pot bet, and really, I would have check-folded just about any river that wasn't the sweet J /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Am I correct to slow completely down with this hand when I'm OOP? Am I just asking the 3rd flush or a set to steal the pot from me? At these levels I can usually get away with it as these hands will check to the river right behind me more often than not. But I'm trying to prepare for the big leagues one day and I know this type of play won't cut it.

I would've gone broke with the Ace high flush. If it's not all-in by the river, it would be then. Especially on a 25c/50c table -&gt; Pump every street, squeeze every penny.

nh though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ipp147]

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I might even lead this flop from the CO and make it look like a steal.

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I'm confused now. How can you lead from CO if MP leads first? Or are you just talking about this hand in general?

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Sorry I misread the action. But yes, in general I pot this if its checked to me at CO or Button.


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Yes, I don't mind getting stacked if I made him pay for it, but man do I hate it if I handed him 2 free cards.

But lets say for some bizarre reason you gave him 2 free cards as Hero does here. Do you still let yourself get stacked when the str8 flush is as likely as it is here?

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It depends alot on the opponent. If I am really deep against a tricky, aggressive, thinking opponent. I might not reraise as I don't want it to get popped back putting me in a really tough spot.

Here, at a low level and with shorter stacks I don't mind reraising cos alot of the time you will get a "wtf call" as you have played it odd giving the free card on the turn. If he has the straight flush so be it.

[Tilt]

Raise the river and its not even close.

[dibbs]

I stack off here every time.