Miraculous Agreement

In another thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Number=3869984), RJT said that it was a "near miracle" that I (an atheist) agreed with him (a theist) on something. That "something" was that we both recommended to someone struggling with thoughts of suicide to go help other people. I posted my reasons for that suggestion:

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This will do a number of things:

1) Give you first hand experience with someone who has it worse off than you.
2) Let you stop thinking about your own problems for a little while.
3) Hopefully make a friend or two in the process.
4) Make you feel that your life is valuable. It's a sense of accomplishment. Helping others makes people feel better.

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It's a rational reason. I have observed in my own life, and in people around me, that we are happier when we help other people. I don't need a book to tell me that this is true.

I'm sure RJT and I agree on a lot of other things too. I actually think most of what Jesus says in the Bible is good advice (I did give him a B- grade on morality, after all).

RJT: from your posts, I would consider you one of the more rational vocal Christians in this forum. See, there's something else we probably agree on. But, take it for what it's worth, I will warn you that if you start to spend more and more time studying your religion, spending more time with fellow-believers instead of others that have different beliefs, you will very soon be in the same camp with NotReady and txag (or whatever that username is). You won't realize you are there, because the rational thinking ability will be blinded by your faith.

I'm sure if we stopped discussing "God" and the "Bible", we would find lots of things that we agree on. I was a Christian for a long time. I'm the same person now as I was then, only much more rational since I stopped believing the Bible was inerrant/infallible, Jesus was God-incarnate, and the Christian God exists (they happened in that order, by the way).

One last thing... I assume this statement from you was rhetorical: "This might be the only thing that Kip has said that makes any sense."? If something I say doesn't make sense, please let me know. If you just don't believe what I say, then there's nothing I can do about that. But, hopefully I'm articulate enough to at least convey to you my thoughts. If not, please let me know. Thanks.

[RJT]

Kip,

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I would consider you one of the more rational vocal Christians in this forum. See, there's something else we probably agree on.

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Yeah, I guess it is hard to disagree there. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks, btw. I try in spite of my deficiencies


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But, take it for what it's worth, I will warn you that if you start to spend more and more time studying your religion, spending more time with fellow-believers instead of others that have different beliefs, you will very soon be in the same camp with NotReady and txag (or whatever that username is). You won't realize you are there, because the rational thinking ability will be blinded by your faith.

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Not going to happen. NT is Protestant anyway. I am Catholic. But, I approach my Religion differently than they do. (Btw, I mean to offer no comment regarding your actual statement here with my response.)

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I was a Christian for a long time. I'm the same person now as I was then, only much more rational since I stopped believing the Bible was inerrant/infallible, Jesus was God-incarnate, and the Christian God exists (they happened in that order, by the way).

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Contrary to many here on the forum, I do not think having Faith erodes one's logic capabilities.

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One last thing... I assume this statement from you was rhetorical: "This might be the only thing that Kip has said that makes any sense."? If something I say doesn't make sense, please let me know. If you just don't believe what I say, then there's nothing I can do about that. But, hopefully I'm articulate enough to at least convey to you my thoughts. If not, please let me know. Thanks.

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This statement of mine was made totally in jest. I wrote it merely to add some levity to my post in light of the situation. My apologizes for not making that clearer. I was hoping it was evident. But, then again my humor has often gone unnoticed. Probably because it is so bad.

RJT

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Contrary to many here on the forum, I do not think having Faith erodes one's logic capabilities.

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Not logic ability, but reasoning ability. It's not a universal truth, but it's usually the case. The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions. This can be a topic for another thread if you disagree with me. But, I'd hope this would be self-evident.

[hmkpoker]

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Contrary to many here on the forum, I do not think having Faith erodes one's logic capabilities.

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Not logic ability, but reasoning ability. It's not a universal truth, but it's usually the case. The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions. This can be a topic for another thread if you disagree with me. But, I'd hope this would be self-evident.

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What good can come from a debate between two people if both are completely unwilling to change their point of view, no matter how good the argument?

[DougShrapnel]

I've always thought that RJT makes good points. Makes it easy to get along with someone when they deabte fairly.

[RJT]

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Contrary to many here on the forum, I do not think having Faith erodes one's logic capabilities.

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Not logic ability, but reasoning ability. It's not a universal truth, but it's usually the case. The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions. This can be a topic for another thread if you disagree with me. But, I'd hope this would be self-evident.

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Kip,

I don’t mind continuing the discussion here. It is your thread so you be the judge. I’ll reply now. If you feel it is better in a new thread then ok. I’m going to bed soon so, I’ll check in the AM.

I disagree with you. I can see one being “blinded” by Faith as you use the term. In that case perhaps in can be a problem. I don’t witness that much really though. The folk I see around my parish who are “into it” - the holy roller types - for the most part aren’t that bright to begin with. (Of course for the most part they are good people, but beside the point.) The one’s who are intelligent seem to have their feet on the ground.

As you know from my posts in the other forum I have been helping out at my church for 15-16 years. Along the way I have met a number of priests, just to use them for an example. All of them aren’t the brightest bulb on the tree, but the majority of them believe it or not are pretty smart. I am impressed with quite a number of them in their intellect.* This doesn’t even count the one’s at the University (Catholic one that I attended) level.

For the most part sermons and thing like that try to help us strengthen our faith in our daily lives. Mostly to the end that we become better persons. Also, the intent is to assist us in developing a better “relationship” with our God. To better help us walk with God.

It really doesn’t, or perhaps I should say shouldn’t, “ interfere” in our everyday lives. It should not mess up our mind that is for sure.

I don’t really see where you and others who here who feel this way make the jump. I can see it in some instances, sure.

The Religion most outsiders only get to see is the TV religion. And here I am not only referring to the Evangelist. I am talking about the politicians for example. Especially the last few years where it is “politically correct” to bring religion to the political table. Even the Democrats after the last election seem to have jumped on the moral bandwagon. They trivialize faith and religion, really.

Even the big litmus test of Religion in politics - the abortion issue - did you read David’s abortion piece? He is an atheist and he makes a good case against abortion. I don’t know what his actual position on the subject is but he makes a good non-religious argument against it.

One can bring the ethics of one’s religion to the political table without bring the religion (even though one’s faith is - should be - always with them.

I’d need to hear some examples how you think this (might) happen to see your point of view.

RJT

*I’ll give you a quick example. I know this one priest who is one of the leading authorities in the world on Dante Alighieri especially “The Divine Comedy”. I don’t know if he is a genius or not, but with those credentials, I’d call him pretty intelligent. Yet, in his everyday life he is a space cadet. But,we all see those types - the absent-minded professor types. It isn’t his religion that causes this. It is his personality or his general make up.

[RJT]

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Contrary to many here on the forum, I do not think having Faith erodes one's logic capabilities.

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Not logic ability, but reasoning ability. It's not a universal truth, but it's usually the case. The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions. This can be a topic for another thread if you disagree with me. But, I'd hope this would be self-evident.

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What good can come from a debate between two people if both are completely unwilling to change their point of view, no matter how good the argument?

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I am not sure what you mean. I look on it as discourse not necessarily debate. Since there is no right or wrong answer for the most part in the overall theme of the religion threads; the intent should be for a better understanding of one’s point of view.

Of course, some threads are about clearly objective issues. This is not necessarily one of those. (And if it is then I am right. - joking.)

[David Sklansky]

"The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions."

For the umpteenth time. Faith is not the problem. The problem is when you don't admit your faith goes against the objective bookies line. Catholics and Jews seem to be able to avoid this problem. By declaring that well meaning non belief doesn't automatically keep you from heaven. Muslims and Protostents seem to be another story.

[chezlaw]

RJT is a reasonable chap so agreement is to be expected with other reasonable folk.

Everyone who understands that religon is a matter of faith is singing from the same songsheet.

chez

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"The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions."

For the umpteenth time. Faith is not the problem. The problem is when you don't admit your faith goes against the objective bookies line. Catholics and Jews seem to be able to avoid this problem. By declaring that well meaning non belief doesn't automatically keep you from heaven. Muslims and Protostents seem to be another story.

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Faith is not the problem... in what? I think it can be a real problem in decision making. If you have a LOT of faith in the Bible, for instance, then you are more apt to ignore contrary evidence when making decisions.

I admit I'm coming from an ex-Protestant perspective, but the issue is the same, whether someone has faith in a book, or their "inner voice", or the alignment of the stars, or whatever.

I'm not talking about heaven, here, which is important, but off topic to my point. I'm talking about every-day decisions. Should I go to college? Which one? If your first instinct is to pray and seek God's will, to read the Bible to see what it says about which college you should go to, then that is detrimental to your decision making. You will be far more likely to make an irrational decision due to the amount of faith you place IN those things (the Bible, prayer, your Pastor's sermons, the alignment of the stars, your horoscope, etc).

To use one of your analogies, David... one who has a lot of faith in the Bible, will be more likely to take Jesus's great commission to heart. It pretty much calls all disciples to be missionaries, to preach the good news to all the corners of the earth. Those people with a lot of faith in the Bible, and in Jesus' words (there), will be far more likely to give up secular pursuits (being a doctor, an engineer, a professor, etc.) and more likely to become preachers and missionaries.

I've seen this a LOT, albeit in the Protestant churches. Bottom line, faith is one of the worst possible methods of decision making. Someone who has a lot of it, will be more apt to make bad decisisons.

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"The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions."

For the umpteenth time. Faith is not the problem. The problem is when you don't admit your faith goes against the objective bookies line.

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In case my long response wasn't direct enough, here goes:

If someone has a lot of faith in the Bible, but admits that non-believers don't believe what the Bible says, that person of faith will STILL act according to their faith in the Bible. Why? Because they have faith. So, even though they may admit it's contrary to the objective bookie's line, they believe that it is true, and the best guide in their decision making process. This person will be far less likely to push his faith on non-believers, since it's a matter of faith, but they will still be more apt to make bad decisions due to that faith.

[chezlaw]

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"The more faith someone starts putting in the Bible, what the Pastor says, what they "hear" from God, and other such decision making methods, the less rational they will be in making decisions."

For the umpteenth time. Faith is not the problem. The problem is when you don't admit your faith goes against the objective bookies line.

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In case my long response wasn't direct enough, here goes:

If someone has a lot of faith in the Bible, but admits that non-believers don't believe what the Bible says, that person of faith will STILL act according to their faith in the Bible. Why? Because they have faith. So, even though they may admit it's contrary to the objective bookie's line, they believe that it is true, and the best guide in their decision making process. This person will be far less likely to push his faith on non-believers, since it's a matter of faith, but they will still be more apt to make bad decisions due to that faith.

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Kip, this wasn't a response to me but this idea that they make bad decisions isn't obviously true.

Its possible (true I think) that people with faith, who recognise that its a matter of faith and take their faith fairly seriously, are often the happiest of people.

They also often do a lot of good for other people.

There's nothing inherently good about being a professor or doctor especially if DS is right and they wouldn't be very good at it.

chez

[RJT]

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...Bottom line, faith is one of the worst possible methods of decision making...

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David already answered this:

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For the umpteenth time. Faith is not the problem.

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Most decisions should not be decided by one's Faith. For those that are Faith related, then of course what one's Faith is becomes an issue relative to a decision or how one arrives at that (or a correct decision if there is one) decision.

[RJT]

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For the umpteenth time. Faith is not the problem. The problem is when you don't admit your faith goes against the objective bookies line. Catholics and Jews seem to be able to avoid this problem. By declaring that well meaning non belief doesn't automatically keep you from heaven. Muslims and Protostents seem to be another story.

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David,

I assume you posted this as a reply to me by mistake. If not, then know that I was not referring to your (type of) posts.

RJT

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Kip, this wasn't a response to me but this idea that they make bad decisions isn't obviously true.

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I think people of strong faith IN the Bible, their Pastor's sermons, their prayers, horoscopes, astrology, etc.... ARE more apt to make irrational decisions. I've seen this to be the case in my life, and those of fellow Christians (when I was one). Perhaps Catholics are different, but I wouldn't think too much. If someone can separate their faith from their decision making process, then that wouldn't be the case. But, for important life issues, people of faith usually will be inclined to give a lot of weight to what the Bible says, what their pastor preached, what they "felt" during prayer, etc.

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Its possible (true I think) that people with faith, who recognise that its a matter of faith and take their faith fairly seriously, are often the happiest of people.

They also often do a lot of good for other people.

There's nothing inherently good about being a professor or doctor especially if DS is right and they wouldn't be very good at it.

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I think I agree with those things.

[David Sklansky]

I agree that those with faith will make bad decisions. But if they realize their faith defys ratinal bookies lines they will realize the same thing about their decisons. In other words, they will still reason properly.

[IronUnkind]

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I think people of strong faith IN the Bible, their Pastor's sermons, their prayers, horoscopes, astrology, etc.... ARE more apt to make irrational decisions.

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Perhaps I missed you stating this elsewhere, but what types of decisions are you talking about?

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I think people of strong faith IN the Bible, their Pastor's sermons, their prayers, horoscopes, astrology, etc.... ARE more apt to make irrational decisions.

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Perhaps I missed you stating this elsewhere, but what types of decisions are you talking about?

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Any decision that people rely on their faith to make. Usually, the bigger life decisions: occupation, marriage, children, and such.